In Season 3 Episode 6 of I So Appreciate You!, co-hosts Nadege Souvenir and Melanie Hoffert explore why succession planning is so important and what individuals and organizations can do to make leadership transitions successful for everyone involved. Guests Carmen Giménez and Ruby Oluoch are two seasoned nonprofit leaders who share their experiences with leadership transitions. They discuss the role board members play in educating and connecting new leaders and why it takes considerable time to build trust between leaders, board members and staff in order to ensure successful transitions. Having a communicative, established and knowledgeable board can help fill those gaps in times of transition. Another step organizations can take to ensure smooth transitions is general planning around succession.

“Succession is an occasion for an organization to do some inward thinking about who they are and what they want. An organization isn’t built around a person, but it is shaped by that person. There’s a lot of adapting that happens, so it’s preparing the organization at a micro level and anticipating the changes that need to happen.”

Carmen and Ruby also discuss what individuals stepping into new leadership roles can do to support board and staff members during transitional times and to ease some of their own onboarding. They chat about the importance of protecting your vision and imagination when transitioning into new roles, especially if working in a place of deficit within organizations. Carmen and Ruby talk with Nadege and Melanie about the joys of discovery and learning in a new role, as well as the freedom of allowing yourself to be wrong or to not know everything when becoming a new leader. Rounding out the conversation, they share what emerging research is saying about leadership transitions, particularly with BIPOC leadership, and what can be done to support narrative change in organizations.

Links

Bell Hooks' “Marginality as site of resistance”

Robert Sterling Clark Foundation “Brilliant Transformations: Toward Full Flourishing in BIPOC Leadership Transitions”

Follow Ruby here:

Gems Newsletter Sign Up

Ruby's LinkedIn

Washington Area Women’s Foundation “Thrive As They Lead” Report

Follow Carmen here:

Carmen's Website

Graywolf Press

Graywolf Press Instagram

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Nadege Souvenir:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You; a raw, funny, and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders and humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the St. Paul and Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends. When we get together, our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege Souvenir:

So, we're inviting you to join us and some incredible guests as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better.

Welcome, everyone. I'm super excited about today's episode, Mel.

Melanie Hoffert:

Me too.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, I think it's been a few episodes since we've had not one but two guests.

Melanie Hoffert:

I know. I'm a little nervous.

Nadege Souvenir:

I think-

Melanie Hoffert:

Are we going to do okay?

Nadege Souvenir:

... we can do it.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay.

Nadege Souvenir:

I think we can do it. I think we can do it. But we've got these two fantastic strong nonprofit leaders in the Twin Cities, Ruby Oluoch and Carmen Gimenez. And I'm just so excited because we're going to dig into succession and thinking about leadership successions and transitions and kind of the stuff related to that.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. So we have kind of a work... Today, we're talking about work.

Nadege Souvenir:

We are, but we're talking about... I mean, in a hierarchical way, we're talking about the top level, whatever, but there's so much other stuff to talk about work.

Melanie Hoffert:

There is, yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

And less serious.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay. Do you have a fun work story?

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, no. I don't know if it's fun.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, it's just...

Melanie Hoffert:

No, how about this? Let's talk about bad, good. Does something... When I say, tell me one of your work stories that sticks with you, what comes to mind?

Nadege Souvenir:

I probably should not share this story because it's fully ridiculous, but it is related to my employment at the Foundation.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, this is good.

Nadege Souvenir:

So a million years ago, or eight, give or take to be exact, when I was applying to be the Associate Vice President of Community Impact, it was at a time where I was still practicing law. I was on a case, I was super busy. I was working 15 to 18 hour days, basically just running on fumes at all times.

And so I knew I had an interview and I got here and I drove to St. Paul. I got confused and parked in the wrong parking lot.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, that's the worst. Trying to get to an interview, yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

And I got myself to the offices and I introduced myself to the receptionist and I sat down and it seemed a little odd.

I mean, I was early, so right away I didn't have any concerns. And then all of a sudden there was this moment. You know when you've forgotten something or a moment of dread or something. I had this overwhelming sense that I was not supposed to be there. So, I grabbed my phone and started frantically searching through my emails. It turns out I was like three days early to my interview.

Melanie Hoffert:

No!

Nadege Souvenir:

It actually was not on that day. And I'm so thankful that I cannot blush because I would've been 17 shades of purple. And I immediately stood up and said to the receptionist, "You know what? I am fine. I have my time wrong." And I think she said, "Oh, do you want me to tell so-and-so you were here?" I was like, "No."

Melanie Hoffert:

No. No.

Nadege Souvenir:

Absolutely...

Melanie Hoffert:

I wasn't here and I'll deny it if you do tell her, yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

And I could not run out of there fast enough hoping that no one would see me and figure it out. I don't even know. This might be the first time I'm telling anyone publicly about it.

Melanie Hoffert:

I have never heard this story. I've never... No. And well, it's good that you came early.

Nadege Souvenir:

Correct. But also kind of ridiculous.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's good. That's really good.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay. You've got to top that.

Melanie Hoffert:

I don't know. I don't have anything to top it, but something that made my heart beat fast. I was a new person at Teach for America, and they were a fairly large organization relative to us, over 2000 people. So, we had this big conference, it was my first week, and we had these small group breakouts and I was in this big room with hundreds of people and our groups were talking.

And I'll never forget, it was one of those talk and report out. And so I'm listening to all these people talk about acronyms I've never heard of and things that...concepts I have nothing about. And they're very academic, all very smart. And so the persons walking around at the microphone comes to our table. I haven't said a thing because I'm a new person and this guy looks at me and he said, "Why don't you report out for us?" I was like, "Oh"... And what do you do as a new person full of a room of performers? So I'm like, "Okay."

I grabbed the microphone, I did my best channeling PR like... What? I'm in blah, blah, blah, blah, speaking in circles, throwing out words I've never heard before. It was awful. And I melted in my seat. It was just... And even telling the story, it doesn't sound that bad, but it was bad. First week-

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh, that sounds horrifying.

Melanie Hoffert:

Hundreds of people I have to report on behalf of my table on things I didn't know. And that guy, I'm telling you, he was an issue anyway, so I know he was not being nice. He was a bully picking on me.

Nadege Souvenir:

I feel like now you are probably the person in a group that makes sure that the reporter feels supported and has what they need.

Melanie Hoffert:

I would, yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

And you're like, "Okay, do you need anything else?"

Melanie Hoffert:

You know what? Okay, I have a closing to this and I just remembered. So I get... I was there for eight years, it gets to the end of my tenure and I was then at a leadership conference and it was kind of the same thing. And he and I kind of got paired. They're walking around with that microphone and he did the same thing to me. But this time I said, "Nope, I'll pass."

Nadege Souvenir:

I love it. I love it. Stepping into your leadership and owning your own space.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. I guess I did.

Wow. Who knew we were going to go down this little rabbit hole?

Nadege Souvenir:

Right. Which, here's the thing, that's what the two fantastic leaders were about to talk to - see what I did there.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, you did.

Nadege Souvenir:

Sometimes it works. So I'm super looking forward to... Let's jump in with Ruby and Carmen.

Melanie Hoffert:

Can't wait.

Nadege Souvenir:

Are you looking to make a larger impact on causes you care about? Not everyone realizes that cash isn't the only way to give. There are many advantages to donating other assets such as real estate, stock or farm equipment. Want to learn more? Call 651-224-5463 or email the St. Paul and Minnesota Foundation gift planning team at philanthropy@spmcf.org.

Melanie Hoffert:

Welcome back, everyone. We are super excited to have not one but two guests in studio with us today. We have Ruby Oluoch and Carmen Gimenez.

So both of you happen to be storytellers, and that is very exciting to me as a writer and a marketer. You're also very accomplished in your own right. And before we dig in, we just want to give our listeners a little bit of your background. So, though I could spend probably an hour because you're both so accomplished.

All right, Carmen, you're an award-winning author of six collections of poetry and a memoir which received an American Book Award. Among your accolades, you were also awarded the Academy of American Poets, Fellowship Prize in 2020 and have also been a Guggenheim Fellow. It's a lot. You're currently the executive director of Grey Wolf Press, which is a wonderful independent press based in Minnesota. I'm a huge fan.

Ruby, moving on to another accomplished writer. We wanted to start with a wonderful quote that caught our eye on LinkedIn. And it is, I believe telling stories is an act of love and resistance. I uplift the values of imagination, creativity, and personal freedom to tell stories that build individual, collective, and systemic power. Amazing.

And really, your writing, which is beautiful, has been featured widely, including in Allure Magazine. You had worked for many years at Pollen and most recently we're the organization's executive director.

So welcome to you both. Glad you're here.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right. Well, if you have been fans of our podcast, you know that we start every interview super casually with three quick questions. So, I'm going to start.

First question is, and it's, I think, weather appropriate. Do you prefer subzero weather or over a hundred degrees?

Carmen Gimenez:

Subzero.

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh, okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, wow.

Nadege Souvenir:

I have follow-ups. Ruby?

Ruby Oluoch:

Yeah, I'm over a hundred all the way.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay. All right. So, we got-

Melanie Hoffert:

A little extremes, yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

... a little opposite energy in here.

Melanie Hoffert:

Nadege, what would you say?

Nadege Souvenir:

Neither. Those are terrible.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay. All right.

Nadege Souvenir:

Fall. Whatever fall is, is what I want. In the middle. All right. A group hang or like a one-on-one situation.

Carmen Gimenez:

One-on-one.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay.

Ruby Oluoch:

I prefer one-on-one as well.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right. All right. Excellent. And the last question. Animals or people?

Carmen Gimenez:

Animals. Dogs, more specifically.

Nadege Souvenir:

I was going to ask if there's a particular animal.

Ruby Oluoch:

Yeah, I'm going to go with people. I'm going to go with babies. Those are my favorite.

Melanie Hoffert:

Ah, the little people.

Nadege Souvenir:

[inaudible 00:09:41] are the best people. They're the realest people.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's right.

Ruby Oluoch:

Exactly.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, their joy is pure, their laughter is awesome and their crying can be a terror.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right, well thank you for sort of warming up as we jump right into this topic. I don't know about you, but I feel like every other day I'm reading a headline about the retirement of some long-term leader of an organization or founders transitioning out.

On one hand I'm super excited about that because yay, opportunities for great and smart and talented people. And then on the other hand, I'm always wondering, are these orgs actually ready for a transition that is that significant? I feel like there's talk of this... I've been seeing sort of headlines like succession planning, what does your board need to know and how do you make that leadership transition?

All of it feels a little bit academic sometimes. And so I'm really looking forward to this conversation where we sort of talk about the people aspect of this. But before we get to that, I feel like we should level set and we should talk about what does succession mean? When you hear that phrase, what does that encompass for you? I'm going to turn to you first, Ruby.

Ruby Oluoch:

Yes. Yeah. I'm super excited to have this discussion for a lot of the same reasons that you shared, Nadege. I think there's much needed exposure or space for a more personal storytelling and reflection on this process, especially as it pertains to how prepared are organizations, in addition to how are individual leaders being prepared, empowered, and protected when taking on these types of roles.

So, I'm really excited to dig in, but when I think about what succession means to me, I think it's two-sided. On one end of it, succession is about honoring and celebrating the contributions of an outgoing leader, the legacy and the foundations that have been built from a previous leader's tenure.

The other side of it is also celebrating, honoring, and respecting the vision and the potential of an incoming leader. Holding those two sides of the coin at once are what comes to mind when I think about succession. And another thing that I feel is really important to recognize in the process of succession is just the liminality, that in between in transitory space, there's not really a hard line when it comes to transition.

A transition isn't complete or doesn't necessarily begin on the start date or the higher date of an incoming leader or the termination departure date of an outgoing leader. So, there has to be, I think, continued tending to that transitory, in between space, that's going to exist for who knows how long. Yeah,

Carmen Gimenez:

I agree that it's that liminal space and it extends into the end of a tenure and the beginning of a tenure. And also I believe succession is an occasion for an organization to do some inward thinking about who they are, what they want, because you have to really understand and anticipate what's ahead. And an organization is not built around a person, but it is shaped by that person.

It doesn't matter what their management style is or what their relationship is, there's a lot of adapting that happens. And so it's preparing the organization at a micro level too, and really anticipating some of the changes that have to happen perhaps with staffing or perhaps with office culture.

And then making sure that the person who's stepping into the role is okay, isn't walking into crisis, isn't walking into, "You need to raise $5 million," kind of problems because then you don't have a chance to get your sea legs. And I think that's really key and that's where the board comes in really handy is - I imagine that a priority for a board is education, that a board might be a little less knowledgeable about an organization until they have to make a big transition. And so then they have to do a deep dive because they are holding the knowledge base in a way that the previous director has.

Melanie Hoffert:

You're bringing up a really good point about the board because... Well, everything in both of what you said, there is a time period of this transition that's unusual. I mean, the work keeps going, things keep happening, but the people change.

And so there's a lot to factor in with the culture, with the people, with the board. I have many questions, but one that just came to mind is could you talk a little bit about advice for organizations or board in terms of taking time for that special moment? Because I think everyone's busy, their plates are full, but you have to be very intentional about that transition and what have you experienced yourselves or seen work in terms of that time taking by, I guess, board and staff.

And I'll open it to either of you. Anyone who wants to jump in.

Carmen Gimenez:

Well, I can talk a little bit about coming in and understanding the approach that the board took. The board talked to everyone on the staff and really asked questions about what do you want, what do you see is ahead for the organization? What is the state of the organization right now? Because there's a certain level of storytelling that the board is in charge of with even just a set of candidates that they're talking to. They have to have a really strong knowledge because they want to find the right fit.

And so again, a little bit of that deep dive is really important. And I think the other thing that we all have to do at any given time is look at the moment, the historical moment, the cultural moment, what are people's expectations? So for example, work from home has really shaped the way that people work and how they connect. And so for a leader to step into a position, they might have to have facility with working with people who aren't physically in front of them, for example. And their new generations and their work style to be sure that if you have a lot of Gen Z folks on your staff, that there's someone who knows how to navigate those conversations.

Ruby Oluoch:

This is a really rich question because there are so many things that I both heard about boards and board management before I entered my role as executive director. There were some really tough lessons that I learned in my position as executive director as far as management and relationship with the board goes.

I think during a transition period, there is a significant need for board members to assess their understanding of the organization's financial health, organizational health in general, but also the kind of commitment or relationship that a board member might have to an incoming leader.

An executive leader needs several dimensions of support. One of my reflections was perhaps my over-reliance on certain board members or on other people in my support network thinking that there was one person or one body that had the answers for what I needed or what I was looking for, the support I was looking for.

But learning that a skill that you have to really sharpen in that position is learning who to ask for help, how to ask for help, and when to recognize that maybe there's a different person, resource, or strategy to get that support. So that's one point I want to make about transition, but I also would like to make a larger point about a really disturbing trend or pattern that we are seeing in the nonprofit sector around Black women in nonprofit leadership.

The Washington Area Women's Foundation just recently published, I think maybe within the last few months, a report on how the sector could support thriving leadership and kind of recognized, at least in the DC metro area, but I think a lot of the findings are transferable, recognized the alarming trend of Black women leaders kind of being extinguished in their positions. Through burnout, through lack of support, through lack of funding. It's unacceptable in my opinion, and that yes, there is a board responsibility, but I also want to be able to talk more about the individual responsibility that we have as leaders, as emerging leaders, aspiring leaders or underrepresented leaders to do that work, to protect ourselves, to empower ourselves, and to prepare ourselves for what we're walking into. Because unfortunately, the research shows and the data shows that it can be extremely fraught.

Nadege Souvenir:

What you're talking about unfortunately is not just limited to the nonprofit sector. I mean, we've seen the headlines recently of Black women leaders in academic institutions either leaving, getting ill, or worse yet dying. And I think your point about how do we think about the process as leaders, as incoming leaders, as people who are leading to take care of ourselves.

And one of the early comments you made about working with the board is kind of that understanding. Often until you are in the seat of the CEO, the ED or whatever, you don't have regular relationships with a board of directors in a nonprofit. So that's actually not a muscle that you can build in anticipation like almost everything else about the job, you can probably pick up somewhere. And so I'd love if either or both of you would share any thoughts you have.

How would you imagine a person could prepare themselves for that aspect of a job if they don't have access to it in the roles that they're working that lead them up to that opportunity?

Carmen Gimenez:

In anticipation of stepping into that, I come from an academic background and I drew from collaborative work and understanding that when you enter a room and there are folks with different skill sets that you want to find out what their skill sets are, what they love, what they're moved by, and also what they think about the organization and what they might bring.

And so I met with every board member and had more or less the same conversation. I asked the same questions and just wrote notes and really formulated who can work together, who can help me with this part? Who is going to give me context? And so I do have... Now, my relationship with the board is if I have X question, then I call this person. If I have this problem then I call X person, which has been really, really helpful.

But it's also, I think, a chance for the board to feel heard because there is a moment in which they have their hands around it because of that moment. And then it's like, "Oh, we're letting it go and we don't know this person." I mean, we know this person but not in the way that we knew this other person. And so I think it's also key for them to see that you are invested in the organization and really be communicated the enthusiasm and the commitment to the work that you do.

Nadege Souvenir:

Thanks. I want to pull on that thread. We talk about the board like it's this collective mass of... It's like this thing. It's the board. There's a CEO, or the ED, there's the staff. And I really appreciate what you said about sort of talking to each person individually and understanding that the board is a living organism made of individual entities that are the people and all people show up differently.

And within the board, you're inheriting power dynamics, you're inheriting history, you're inheriting longevity with an organization. Interviewing or talking to each board member is probably a really great way to start once you have the role. I wonder, Ruby in your reflection, if somebody came to you today and said, "I'm thinking about this opportunity. I've got a job offer to be an ED, I've never been one before, what should I be thinking about?" Is there anything you would add to that?

Ruby Oluoch:

There is. I really appreciate that. I so appreciate this question because it has weighed heavy on me. It's weighed heavy on my mind and heart as I've thought many times about... If I could rewind a year prior to stepping into the role, what would I have told that version of myself about what to prepare or how to think about the role.

One of the things Carmen said that I want to reinforce is I also went through a process of individually meeting with board members, talking to them about their connection to the work, their skill set, what or how I might be able to connect with them as a resource. But one of the things that, I think, is also important in strengthening that board, ED relationship is trust and trust is something that takes time to build. It's just not transferable all the time. It's not a given.

So, I think there is something to be said for the time required to nurture trust between leaders and board members and to whatever extent an organization can account for that time, can either maybe encourage or foster a leader to connect with the board before the appointment is made as executive director or even after you've taken the role, understanding that there might be a six month to a year long process of relationship building between the board and ED to really build that trust that's necessary to lead effectively.

But something else I would have gone back and told Ruby of the past is to protect... What I really needed to protect was my imagination and my vision. I shared both in a feature that was published, there was a Meet Ruby feature that Pollen published about me right before I took the position. And I named imagination as a core value of my leadership, Melanie mentioned it in my bio as well. And it's kind of... I think that term sometimes can feel a little like abstract or esoteric like, "Okay, yes, we want to be imaginative," but I really understand imagination to be the ability to create new ideas, ways of thinking and constructs as needed.

And that is an ability and a muscle and a skill set that I don't think can be taken for granted. I think especially for underrepresented leaders, it's often a underappreciated gift of ours because of our position in the margins. There's a essay by Bell Hooks titled Marginality As Resistance. And in the essay, Bell Hooks is describing how marginalized people, specifically Black people and Black women have a specific way of seeing reality as a result of living both on the margins but also living or working in the center. And as a result of that, people on the margins, Black women are skilled in working in that space of marginality as a space of imagination, as a space of resistance, as a space of refusal.

If we stay in the space of thinking of that place as a site of deprivation, I think we often talk about how hard it is, the struggle, the pain, the lack of resources, the deficit that exists, that puts our imagination at risk. And I do think that over time what can happen is that your imagination becomes jaded or eroded or snuffed out as a result of trying to make it work with what we got.

Nadege Souvenir:

Wow. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, but I appreciate you naming the deficit perspective that can sometimes happen in that space. And so I'd almost like to just entirely flip that and as a new leader coming into a space, considering a new opportunity or being sort of right on the threshold of the door as you walk into a new opportunity, where are the moments of joy in that?

Carmen Gimenez:

I think it is the process of discovery. Everything is new and you have a group of very enthusiastic folks who want to talk to you about what they do. And the more you probe and question, the more you get to know them and they feel heard and you get a real investment in the people that you surround yourself with and who you work with and your different stakeholders. And the other piece of joy is that there's always a new challenge and a new problem.

There is something about being nimble and constantly moving around and adapting. It's not for everybody, but I take great joy in being challenged in lots of different ways throughout any given day and looking to see who wants to collaborate with me on solutions and working with people and learning from people. Because I think that's the other interesting part of this job is that I'm learning new things every day alongside the people that I work with.

The more that I learn and open myself to learning, the better leader I can be, and also allowing myself to be wrong and to not know. There is something very liberating about that. In moments when the job feels heavy, you can just say, "I don't know. So, what do you think?" And also to open that space, there's a joy in that. I think it's empowering and I think it's honest to just say, "I don't know everything and I can't do everything." You become part of the machine, but you're not the only piece that works.

Melanie Hoffert:

Ruby, you mentioned at the beginning with succession planning, there's such an opportunity for storytelling and reflection, and I know both of you are in the business of narrative change. What can organizations do? What can individuals do, what can leaders do to support narrative change around what we're talking about today?

Ruby Oluoch:

I'm a little weary when it comes to the conversation or the discussion with what organizations can do. I'm just not sure, given that there has been... What I can say is that there is a lot of really great research and reporting coming out about this that has very actionable and well-vetted strategies.

One of the reports that I felt very grateful for finding was titled Brilliant Transformations, published by the Ron Clark Sterling Foundation. And that report focuses on how to transition BIPOC leaders into full and flourishing leadership. I so appreciate that report for many different reasons, but one of them is the recommendations that are provided from the participants of that study around of changing the narrative around leadership transition.

Melanie Hoffert:

Great. We can definitely look into that.

Nadege Souvenir:

I so appreciate... We're just going to keep doing this…conversation. Because it has opened the door to others continuing it because we can probably sit here for hours. But what I'm imagining in my head is listeners are going to hear this and start their version of this conversation with themselves, with their friends over coffee in their boardrooms.

And so I want to thank both of you so much for helping us sort of put this in the space in a different way, in a really sort of personal way, in a non-academic way. And thank you for your leadership in communities in all the various communities that you are in. It's just been such a pleasure to talk to you today.

Melanie Hoffert:

Agreed. Thank you both.

Carmen Gimenez:

Thank you.

Ruby Oluoch:

Thank you.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, Nadege, that was really great to have two guests in studio with us.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, it was fantastic. And also I think we always say, "Oh, we could have spent more time," but with two guests, I truly feel that way.

Melanie Hoffert:

And didn't the time go fast? Like boom. We're done, yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

It absolutely did.

Melanie Hoffert:

So there was a lot of really, really important information that we gathered from both of them.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. The interesting thing is this is just really something everybody should be talking about. Not in a scary, ominous, succession is happening kind of way. But the reality is, and of course, I'm never going to remember where I found this, but less than 20% of nonprofits have a formal succession plan in place. Right now. At any given moment-

Melanie Hoffert:

That's why we're talking about, right?

Nadege Souvenir:

Yes. Only two of them maybe got a plan, but once their leader says that they're leaving, then 70% of the boards put something together right away. And I wonder what the transitions would feel like if so many of the plans weren't happening in the moment or in reaction.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, it's responsive. It's not necessarily proactive, it's not necessarily intentional and that might not be what everybody wants, but it's just a matter of necessity. We have to get a plan done and we have to get a new leader in.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right. And when you think about who that new leader is, the differences in generation, the differences in background, somebody coming from out of town, it just seems like intentional would be the better way. Proactively planning.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. And also we didn't talk about this, but there's also probably considerations for are you bringing someone who's on staff versus someone who doesn't even know the culture? There's so much to really grapple with around those questions.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. There's so much to unpack and I hope maybe we have just added a little bit more-

Melanie Hoffert:

We started.

Nadege Souvenir:

... to this conversation.

Melanie Hoffert:

We just put a little chip in, yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

And I know we're going to share a bunch of stuff. There's so much to read here. Listen, y'all just Google Succession Planning Nonprofits, you will find all the greatest hits.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. So we can all do it better.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. All right.

Thank you for listening to, I So Appreciate You. You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You podcast and on Instagram at So Appreciate You.

Melanie Hoffert:

We'd also appreciate you taking a moment to write us a review. And if you like our show, be sure to follow I So Appreciate You on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Nadege Souvenir:

Have a question or topic suggestion? Email us at podcast@spmcf.org. Thank you for listening to, I So Appreciate You.