In Season 3 Episode 3 of I So Appreciate You!, co-hosts Nadege Souvenir and Melanie Hoffert talk to Seena Hodges, Founder and CEO of The Woke Coach, about why it’s not enough to be an ally and how we go from being allies to being accomplices.

Seena Hodges is in the business of discomfort, and she wants people to get comfortable with it. Her company, The Woke Coach, works with businesses ranging from small non-profits to Fortune 500 companies, all of which share a desire to make their workplaces more equitable and just spaces. Seena knows that fear is the one thing that stops us from growing and she’s not afraid to work with people on tapping into their fears, biases, and discomfort.

When working with clients, Seena asks them two things:

1) What is something that they care about implicitly?

2) What is something that angers them more than anything?

From there, Seena says that you can find what spurs you to action. She implores her clients, and people in general, to do the work – a critical step for going beyond allyship.

“The moment that you’re exposed to something that you haven’t been exposed to before, it is your inherent responsibility to research that – to continue to develop your awareness around that thing or construct or reality for specific people. That’s the responsibility I think people have when it comes from trying to move from ally to accomplice.”

Seena also shares her insights on current DEI workforce trends, whether these efforts are working, and why now is the time to continue investing in DEI work. She offers wisdom and words of advice to all people, not just leaders in the workforce, on how to grow and become true accomplices to our fellow humans.

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Nadege Souvenir:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You!, a raw, funny, and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders in humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the St. Paul and Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends. When we get together. Our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege Souvenir:

So we're inviting you to join us and some incredible guests as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better.

Melanie Hoffert:

Hello everyone. We're super excited to have you today. We have such a special guest, Seena Hodges, who is the founder and CEO of a business, a consulting business called The Woke Coach. And Seena has also just recently published a book, which is called "From Ally to Accomplice: How to Lead as a Fierce Antiracist". So we're going to get to her in just a little bit. Super excited to have her.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that conversation is going to be great as we squeeze it into the busyness of the time of year that we're in. We're here. We're here in that fourth-quarter madness.

Melanie Hoffert:

We are. It's always multi-layered. There's so many projects going on. I know people, the back-to-school thing is happening. People are running all over. So how are you taking care of yourself right now, Nadege?

Nadege Souvenir:

I think the reality is when I get to this time of the year between the combination of work stuff and life stuff, because the holidays and everything. It feels like there's no space. And so one of the best ways to decompress is just to veg out and watch TV.

Melanie Hoffert:

I'm glad you're talking mentioning this. It's also that time of year where it's a little cooler. We're in fall, it's darker longer, and so it is kind of a TV time.

Nadege Souvenir:

It's like perfect time for those comfort foods and sitting on the couch and just digging into something.

Melanie Hoffert:

Letting your mind take a break.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yes.

Melanie Hoffert:

So what are you digging into?

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh goodness.

Melanie Hoffert:

Should we trade some favorites?

Nadege Souvenir:

We can. I feel like half the time I never... Okay, so can I just say a thing? So we're going to talk about some shows that we like to watch, but I don't know if you and Em do this, but Joshua and I do this, and it's like, "What should we watch," and literally spend 20 minutes, even though we're actively watching maybe five shows and we have things we like and still 20 minutes are wasted trying to figure out where to go.

Melanie Hoffert:

Can I add onto this problem? So always, if we're going to eat and watch something, I like to be watching something while I eat. And what ends up happening is we'll cook or I'll cook, have the meal ready, and then we'll sit down and be doing that. I'm like, "No." And by the time we get to our show, my plate is gone. I don't have any more food, and I'm so mad and Emily doesn't seem to care. I'm like, "No, this is a problem." So we need to remedy that. But maybe we will - tell me what to watch.

Nadege Souvenir:

So one of the things we're watching right now is The After Party. It's on Apple TV, so it's a murder mystery show. So there's two seasons. We're in the second season, but the first season is a high school reunion, is the premise for getting all these random, wacky characters altogether and somebody gets murdered and the show sort of follows a detective sort of figuring out the who done it of it all.

Melanie Hoffert:

And you'd recommend this show?

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. The first season was a lot of fun. And the critical thing is each episode is one person sort of telling the story of the events of the evening from their point of view with a different movie style.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, this sounds really creative

Nadege Souvenir:

Actually. Yeah. So it's easy. It's lighthearted. It doesn't take itself too seriously. Yeah.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's great. Well, we don't have Apple TV. We can figure a way to get it.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, we can figure that out.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh goodness. Well, we are watching Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber on, I think it's on Netflix. Have you heard about this?

Nadege Souvenir:

No.

Melanie Hoffert:

It's like the story of Uber's, it's the origin story. I would say I'm a little disturbed as present. It's just like that corporate hunger, all the shenanigans that happened with the founding of Uber. So we're just into a few of episodes, but it's really, really quite good in terms of just suspenseful and keeps you watching from this one episode to the next. So I guess I'll report back on that one.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, yeah. Anything else?

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, I have my... That's why I asked you. I have what I would watch list if I were by myself, and then my Emily list. Em and I, we watch Untold, the sports series where it's all these untold stories in sports and 30 for 30. So we can agree on sports documentaries and we'll gobble those up even though she's much more the jock. When I'm by myself, I want to watch Unsolved Mysteries some... What else do I like? Well, Hoarders.

Nadege Souvenir:

Hoarders.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

Did you say that bashfully?

Melanie Hoffert:

A little bit, because it makes me just relax.

Nadege Souvenir:

Fair enough.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. How about you?

Nadege Souvenir:

So I am the queen of the rewatch, and so shows that I have either loved I rewatch or shows that are really easy to fall back into, like I can be cooking. And then I'm currently hate rewatching a show, which is a super weird thing to do, and we're probably going to get hate mail about this or something, but I'm hate rewatching the Gilmore Girls.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, I've never seen the Gilmore Girls.

Nadege Souvenir:

So the first time I watched it, I watched it with my daughter, Addison, and we loved it and I think we started watching it because one of my uncles kept saying, "You're Rory and Lorelai." And I was like, "Okay, I got to watch this show to understand what that means." And it was great and it was cute, and we cried our eyes out at the end of the show. And I even have pictures. I think I posted them on social media, but now as I rewatch it, the level of what the white privilege that is happening in this show. And it's not that I didn't see it the first time, but because it was new, I was taking in the story and now I'm just like, "Oh girl, please."

Melanie Hoffert:

I can see you cooking.

Nadege Souvenir:

I literally cannot, I'm rolling my eyes. I'm like, "Okay." I am Googling, I am trying to find Reddit trails where I'm like, "Emily Gilmore is a so and so. Rory is actually a petulant brat." It's so ridiculous. But I am enjoying the nonsensicalness of hate rewatching a show.

Melanie Hoffert:

I think you may have just coined something. I think you need to publish an article -- I hate rewatch.

Nadege Souvenir:

It is kind of amusing, but yes. So that is the thing that I'm doing.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, the rewatching, because I do not really rewatch things. I'm wondering, is it cathartic, relaxing for you?

Nadege Souvenir:

It can be interesting depending on the show. If it lets me see other aspects of a show, it's kind of like how, if I like a book, I'll read it fast the first time and then I will reread it again.

Melanie Hoffert:

Go back.

Nadege Souvenir:

I also reread lots of books that I love for that same reason, and then for other shows, they're just easy to pop in and out of so I can be doing other things

Melanie Hoffert:

And the feeling and the energy they're going to bring you to your space.

Nadege Souvenir:

So I know that if I turn around for 20 minutes, I want have missed anything.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Great. Well, speaking of book, should we get to our guest, Seena?

Nadege Souvenir:

Absolutely

Melanie Hoffert:

Wonderful.

Melanie Hoffert:

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Nadege Souvenir:

Welcome back everyone. We're now joined by our guest, Seena Hodges. Hi Seena.

Seena Hodges:

Hi.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right. We could probably spend the entire episode talking about your background and your work, but I'm just going to give our listeners a couple of highlights before we get into things. So Seena Hodges is the founder and CEO of The Woke Coach. It's a consulting company that helps clients be better individuals and companies, I suppose, with a deeper understanding of how the legacy of racism and injustice affects us all. Seena was a 2023 Women in Business honoree from the Minneapolis St. Paul Business Journal. You were the first person of color to be the president of the Walker Arts Center Board of Trustees, and you're still on that board. And you have just published a new book called "From Ally to Accomplice: How to Lead as a Fierce Antiracist". Welcome.

Seena Hodges:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Melanie Hoffert:

Seena, we're so happy to have you here. We're going to do just a little bit of a warmup. We like to ask three questions of our guests to get going. So the first one is, live in a world where you dance instead of walk or sing instead of talk.

Seena Hodges:

Oh, I would sing. I would sing all day. If my voice were better, I would sing a lot. I love musicals and I think that there's always an appropriate reason to burst into song.

Melanie Hoffert:

All right, that may happen today, feel free.

Seena Hodges:

Amazing.

Melanie Hoffert:

All right, the second one, Annalise Keating or Olivia Pope.

Seena Hodges:

Oh, come on. That's not even fair. That's not even a fair question. I think it depends on day of the week or circumstance. Right? I think it's a both/and. I think you need Annalise to get you out of the bed in the morning and you need Olivia Pope to tell you to go to bed.

Nadege Souvenir:

Listeners, I feel full disclosure is necessary here. Melanie has not watched either of these two shows.

Melanie Hoffert:

No.

Seena Hodges:

Oh my goodness.

Melanie Hoffert:

No. And Nadege vetoed my question and put this in, but no, I just know that these are strong, powerful, fashion-forward women and that's what I know.

Seena Hodges:

Okay, Melanie. Okay. Okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

Where should I start?

Seena Hodges:

Holidays coming up, you waste some time. You got to binge watch. I think you got to start with How to Get Away With Murder.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay.

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh, interesting.

Seena Hodges:

I think so. It's because it's a, I don't know. I think it's probably just an easier way into Shondaland. Yeah. And then I think if you go straight to Scandal, because Scandal's going to make you mad.

Melanie Hoffert:

Ah, okay.

Seena Hodges:

And let's be honest, there's one whole season of Scandal where you're like, "Why did they make this season?"

Nadege Souvenir:

To be fair, I think on both shows you could give up at some point, but the point is-

Seena Hodges:

Fair, fair.

Nadege Souvenir:

... while they're good, they're like epic.

Melanie Hoffert:

Great. Well, I'm adding this to my list because it is that time of year.

Seena Hodges:

I think there's a kidnapping scenario in Scandal that just went too far.

Nadege Souvenir:

Scandal went too far, like jump the shark like 27 times, but here you go.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. Well, I'm intrigued. Okay, last question. Early bird or night owl?

Seena Hodges:

Night owl.

Melanie Hoffert:

Night owl.

Seena Hodges:

Night owl. If I don't have to talk to anybody before 10:00 AM it is a great day.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, okay. Good, good.

Seena Hodges:

And that's part of it is because of my background in theater and working in the performing arts and living in New York City, and if you work in theater in New York City, nothing starts before 10:00 AM. And so that was where I was kind of trained in that way. And you come here and you're like, oh, wait a minute. So when I wake up at 9:00, it's already 10:00. Oh, shoot.

Melanie Hoffert:

Great. Thank you for those.

Nadege Souvenir:

That would be the perfect schedule. I got to get a life where I cannot talk to people before 10:00. That'd be amazing. Amazing.

Seena Hodges:

I do it, but it's not my preference.

Nadege Souvenir:

I get it. So I want to dive in and talk a little bit about your work, but before I do that, I want to give you a chance to sort of frame it up at a high level. If somebody said, "Hey, Seena, The Woke Coach, what do you do?"

Seena Hodges:

I would tell someone who asked about our company that we move people from that place of being allies to that place of being accomplices. So essentially our work is rooted in transformation. What we want folks to do is to have the ability to be the best, most understanding, and empathetic versions of themselves around these very wicked problems and sticky issues of racism, bias, injustice. We really want people to be able to have that level of self-awareness to understand one, what these issues actually are, what work they need to do to better understand the issues, also understand how they're contributing to some of these issues on a day-to-day basis. So that big piece of self-awareness is critical for the work that we do and we sell transformation. That's what we do.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, I love that.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. Okay. So the work that you do, it's obviously going to challenge people's comfort zones, right? You're in it and sort of thinking about it. And I wonder, can you tell us why is it critical that we all move past or move into discomfort and sort of past that place of comfort where we all reside?

Seena Hodges:

Yeah. It's interesting. The reason why my work exists in the first place is because where we live is in our comfort zones. That's the place that we live. And so the moment that you're asking someone to think about the world through a different lens or to think about the perspective of someone else, you're asking someone to inherently be uncomfortable.

And so sometimes that's really challenging for people and it creates this sense of fear and it creates this sense of I can't accomplish that. Right? Our biggest competitor is ourselves, like us competing with ourselves. And sometimes what happens is that we feel like we can't do a thing because we don't have enough information, and that scares the crap out of us. No one wants to feel like I can't do this thing.

I'd also just say that some people are uncomfortable every single day just because of their social identity, or they exist in a way that things haven't been made easier for them. Until 1990, we didn't have the Americans with Disabilities Act, so people who desperately needed those accommodations didn't have them. So I would say for the sake of who we all aspire to be, we have to be willing to work in that space of discomfort. And also it's recognizing that that space of discomfort is actually really not that uncomfortable. It's a space of learning. And to be honest, if you're trying to grow as a human and learn more about the world that you live in and more about other people, you have to stretch and stretch is how you grow.

And in order to grow, you have to have some discomfort. Even when, I hate this analogy, but I use it's like you go to the gym, I hate picking up those weights. I hate -- famous last words for me, like five more reps. I'm like, But that's the reality because on the other side, I know what I want for the summertime, so I got to put it in.

Melanie Hoffert:

So Seena, I have your book in front of me, and before I get to my question, I have a lot to say. First of all-

Nadege Souvenir:

Uh-oh.

Seena Hodges:

Everybody grab some popcorn. Here we go.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, of course I want to read it to prep for today, but I read this in two days because I found it to be so well done, so generous in terms of what you're sharing. So clear in terms of how to act. And so I want to turn this into a full book club.

Seena Hodges:

Girl you have to be over here like my eyes are welling up.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, no, I do, but listen, I told Nadege I think it should be required reading certainly for leaders in organizations, but I think for human beings, I'm not kidding. So that's my cell. This book needs to be read. But I noted one place, and I just want to build on what we were talking about with this comfort zone. On page 50, you cited what you hear from those who identify as BIPOC, and then what you heard from those who identify as white people. And I noted of the four phrases from the white people, it started with "I'm afraid," and that really stuck with me because I do think fear is that one thing that stops us from growing, like you said. So I'm wondering... Well, I'm going to turn away from fear a little bit because you addressed that, but I'm wondering, taking all of your wisdom and putting it in a book - how did you decide what to put onto paper and what you left out? That is a big choice, especially I imagine you spend months with people.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah. So funny story is that when I wrote the book and I gave it to the editors, they said, "Okay, Seena, great. You've given us a successful draft of a book, but you've written a 101 and a 201. Which book do you want to write?"

Melanie Hoffert:

Interesting.

Seena Hodges:

And I was like, "Okay, overachiever Seena can take that criticism and that feedback." And so I had to go back and go through it again and say, okay, if we're in a 2023 context, what I imagined is that people had done some work and some learning. You'd listened to some podcasts, you'd had some conversations, you've read some books.

And so I said to myself, if those people have done that work and what they need is someone to help them continue engaging in the work, what tool would I give them? And so essentially this book, it's very anecdotal, it's about the experiences that I've had with clients, but it's also about self-awareness and that self-reflection piece and those prompts in there are really critical for really helping you understand where you are on your journey. And I think what's always interesting about folks who are on a journey of creating more inclusive environments or being more actively anti-racist, is that when you're on that journey, it's always informed by what you know. That's the piece of it that's really critical. The other piece of that is that not only is it informed by what you know, it's also actionized by you doing something.

And so that choice to opt in to do something different every single day is the most important part of it, which is why there are questions in there. Sometimes Nadege and I have had this joke over the years where sometimes people go and they'll see an opera or they'll go to the theater or they'll go and look at an exhibition of some artist in a contemporary art context and they feel like, "Wow, I did it. That's the work."

Nadege Souvenir:

I never have to go back. That's it.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah, I did that thing. What I want folks to recognize about the world that we live in is the moment that you are exposed to something that you haven't been exposed to before, it is your inherent responsibility to further research that, to continue to develop your awareness around that thing or that construct or that reality for specific people. And so that's a responsibility that I think people have when it comes to try to move from ally to accomplice.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right. So what I'm hearing from you is that this is more the 201 and not the 101.

Seena Hodges:

Yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

But what I'm also hearing from you is this book probably should not be the end all be all of your work.

Seena Hodges:

Oh, heck no. No. I think the number one question that I get from people outside of where do I start this work is really about how do I do this work? And the answer to how do I do this work, and when I say this work, I mean the work of being an active anti-racist or creating inclusive environments, the how to do this work is to always have something in front of you, to always be aspirational about what you're learning. What do I know now? Yes. Now let me learn something else. Yes. And as you're learning new things, how are you moving to action around what you're learning?

That's the critical piece of it. Because the other thing that we like to do, I'm not going to name any names, but some people out here to really learn new things and just beat people over the head with the information. "Well, I read this and in Isabelle Wilkerson's Caste," and yes, all those things are great. Please read all of that information. Please listen to the podcasts and watch the documentaries. But really at the end of the day, what you will be evaluated on is what you do with what you learn.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right. And I found that your voice, you’re a bridge, I think among people of difference. That's what I pulled from the book, and it is, I love the 101 or... Wait 101-

Seena Hodges:

I think I meant to say 101, 201.

Melanie Hoffert:

201.

Seena Hodges:

I don't remember what I just said.

Melanie Hoffert:

You probably did say that, yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

We're all here. We'll figure it out.

Melanie Hoffert:

But I also just want to say for those of you who haven't read it also does have a lot of contextual knowledge. So people who may just be starting their journey, this is not going to leave you behind. You're going to be able to dig in and go further. And one of the things that I took away is this in a new way, this race first lens. And so I wake up with mantras, I'm like affirming all this stuff in my life, and I really thought about how do I start to do that every morning? How do I start to put that hat on and not just encounter it through my day in different ways when I'm at work or when I'm trying to be intentional about it? So I just want to thank you for that. Now, I'm wondering if there are any other practices that you would want to lift up to our listeners that they might take away from this book?

Seena Hodges:

Wow.

Melanie Hoffert:

I mean there's so many, so I don't want to put you on the spot. In fact, buy the book.

Seena Hodges:

Yes. First and foremost, buy the book. Read the book.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Seena Hodges:

I think that I'm really pro what resonates with you.

And I think that when people ask me, if you're an individual and you're saying to me, "I want to get more involved and I want to become a more active anti-racist, I want to help create inclusive environments and circumstances." I tell people a lot to think about one of two things. What issue or what is something that you care about implicitly something that is important to you? It could be anything. On the other hand, what's the thing that pisses you off more than anything? Because if you look at both of those things, somewhere in there, you can be constantly spurred to action. And then the question that you refer to about that race first lens is really thinking about these issues from a racialized context. I wholeheartedly believe that race, of course, is that issue. Race, racism, are those issues constructs that we haven't solved for. And these are conversations that we're still constantly having to have because we haven't looked at things from the lens of race equity.

If we were looking at an issue, women's pay equity, but we were using a race lens, a race first lens to have that conversation, perhaps we'd be in a different context and a different situation. The hardest truth about this reality is that if you're talking about an issue like pay equity, who are the first women in this country, in the workforce? Unpaid, forced to bear the children of their oppressors. And this is the kind of stuff that people don't talk about on the day-to-day, but it's the kind of stuff that is underneath the surface everywhere we go. So when there's a bunch of white women in a room having a conversation about pay equity, I don't think that's a bad conversation, but I think the conversation that needs to be had is a conversation with black women and indigenous women at that table. You can't have that conversation without them.

Melanie Hoffert:

Absolutely.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right. I just paused because there's just so many things there, but I'm thinking about the nature of the work that you do and the nature of the time that we're in. You launched The Woke Coach before 2020, before the murder of George Floyd. And I know I'm reading about it and I'm hearing about it, and I imagine you saw the uptick in demand for the types of services that you provide. But I don't know about you. I'm starting to hear budget read sort of calibrations and all of those fun things. And fun was in quotes, and there was sarcasm there folks, if you didn't hear it. What are you hearing in the sort of marketplace about companies want to stay in this work, and what is your response to what you're hearing?

Seena Hodges:

Yeah, that's a good question. So it runs the gamut about what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing. There are some companies who've said to themselves, we are going to invest in this work no matter what, and we're going to continue to do this work. There are some companies that we've seen that have already said, we hired that DEI person, but we don't really need that. We've got it together. We are doing really, really great.

And here's where I say that, "Okay." I'm not sure that I expected for anything different to happen after the murder of George Floyd. What I knew for a fact is that we do what we always do when we run to a circumstance and we want to fix things because of that fear, because of that guilt, because of that shame. And so the conversations that I was having in my circles in 2020 was like, all right, make it work for you. Do the thing that you need to do for yourself. Because what we also know, and these are some of the hard truths, what we also know about the history of this country is that it's littered with broken promises.

Let's talk about broken treaties to indigenous people. Let's talk about 40 acres and a mule for formerly enslaved people. So I know that people felt like there was going to be a divestment in the work. We didn't know how long it was going to take. And because time moved so very rapidly three years ago, seems like you just blinked your eyes, but also three years is not a sufficient amount of time to put in work to correct issues that are centuries old. We don't get to do that in three years. It's like 0.2 seconds. And I recently did an interview and someone wanted to ask me about the failure of DEI efforts and to talk about what research exists to say that DEI efforts weren't working. And I found that to be a very fascinating question. I think that question is also rooted in fear and discomfort.

But the reality of this is that the way that we are moving through the world right now, and the thing that's really important for us to know is that when we think about DEI work and whether or not it's successful, it's not about surveys and it's not about what members of dominant groups think.

Honestly, if you want to know if your DEI work is successful, ask the people who are most impacted by the lack of DEI happening in their workplaces. Those are the people who will tell you that, no, it's not working. There was just an article in the LA Times where black people said they would rather stay remote than to go into workplaces to deal with the casual racism and microaggressions that exist. So you have people actively wanting to choose a different path. Also to speak to this reneging on promises, we just found out that what is the dollar amount? There's billions of dollars that have not been paid to historically black colleges and universities, federal dollars. The Department of Education just found that.

So the reality is that also as we sit here today, we are in October in 2023. In one year from today, we will still not have had the presidential election in 2024. So if people think that it's okay to divest from DEI right now, I'm just going to tell you it's going to put you behind all of those outcomes and goals that you identified for inclusion. If we divest from this work right now, we're divesting at the time where the work actually needs us the most.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about a presidential address at a university in North Dakota that I was just at. And notably, I heard him reference DIR, diversity, inclusion, respect and leaving the equity out. And it made me think about how there is, yes-

Nadege Souvenir:

I feel like it's dire that E was missing.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, it's intentional.

Seena Hodges:

Right? Did you get the joke, D-I-R.

Melanie Hoffert:

Gotcha. And the hair on the back of my neck stood up because it's like these subtle ways that people are trying to, I think really push back against this equity movement. And so I'm wondering if you can also talk about, you're talking about divesting, but there's also the opposition we're feeling, with states and our politics and the state where I'm from, what is going on. And so there's this bigger ecosystem too that people are up against.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah, Melanie, it's not new.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Seena Hodges:

I think some of this is more highly visible because of things like social media and the 24 cycle news hour. I don't think any of these efforts to undermine black excellence or champion people from different communities. It's not new. I think it's just got a bigger megaphone. And I think also as we're starting to look at the shifts in population, people are starting to feel like, oh, I might be replaced and something different might happen. I might not be as valuable to the ecosystem as I previously was. And when people start to feel that way, they start to act out. And so the reality of it is that I don't necessarily think that it's scary. Indeed, some of the things that we're bearing witness to right now are really scary things. But I also think that it's not new things. And I know if you ask me about myself personally, I was not brought here to have a spirit of fear around advocating for people who look like me, people who need support, people who wouldn't otherwise have access to resources. I'm here for the long haul to do this work.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right. Yeah. Thank you for that.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, as part of the reason, you say that you're here for the long haul, but I mean this work is deeply personal to you. It's not just personal because it's an issue, but it's personal to your literal person.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

And is that what drives you to sort of be here? Or are there ever times you wish you could just take the hat off and take a legit vacation from all of it?

Seena Hodges:

Yeah. It's funny because if you ask me what I would do if I wasn't doing this work and if I didn't have my company, I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine a world in which I don't have a company that's trying to help people be the best version of themselves. I feel like I could figure it out. But for me, it's some, it is really rooted in wanting to provide closure for my ancestors. There are some people who came before me who made great sacrifices. They also made great progress, and I owe a debt to that. Screw student loans.

Nadege Souvenir:

In more ways than one.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah. I owe my ancestors and those people who came before me, and those people on whose shoulders I stand, especially when you live in a world and you look at the constant continual existence of inequity, it is challenging. And so for me, I always feel like either you're a part of changing things or you're on the sidelines. And the reality is, if you're on the sidelines, you're as guilty as the people who set these systems up in the first place. And so I don't think any of us have the opportunity to sit on the sidelines in the fight of racial equity, in the fight of creating inclusive environments. It's not okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

I noted in your book where you referenced your ancestors and I just thought was such a beautiful and powerful fulfillment. You're fulfilling this purpose that's deep inside of you. And I'm curious what advice you would have for other people who are starting their own business or want to do this big thing, but there's so many things that hold us back, what you might share with other listeners who are thinking that they need to do something in this world, whatever that is.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah, I think the advice that I'd give to people who are thinking about becoming an entrepreneur or chasing your dream in any shape or form is that you really can't fail when you bet on yourself. I think that that's a really important thing to know and consider. People used to say to me all the time, business owners that I know would always say to me, if you do something, wait a minute...I'm going to start this over. So business owners would always say things to me early on when I started my business, they'd say things like, "If you do something that you love, you never work a day in your life." And so for me, while what I do every day is work, it doesn't feel that way. A lot of folks get, and I'm not going to ask you all about this, but some people get what I call the Sunday scaries, where on Sunday you're at home and your tum is in knots, your back is hurting. You got all the things because you got to show up at work. And what would it be like to live in a world where nobody had the Sunday scaries? And so for me, I don't have the Sunday scaries, I just have a, "Oh, it's Monday." Quite often I don't know what day of the week. I just know where I'm supposed to be at what time. Like today, what's today?

Nadege Souvenir:

Honestly, why are you asking me questions like that? These are hard questions.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah. I never know. I just know that I'm supposed to be here at a certain time. So I think you can never fail when you bet on yourself. That's number one. And number two, I do believe that anything is possible.

And I know sometimes people think that that's silly, but I am a big dreamer, so all the ideas that I have are big. They're so big that when I started my business, my first assistant, she still works with me to this day. I would have all these ideas all the time. And one day I went to my mailbox at my house and I opened the mailbox and there's this package, and I opened the package and I opened it, and there's this beautiful notebook and there's this gorgeous black woman on the front of the notebook, and it's from my assistant. And I say, "Oh, Shameika, thank you so much for this notebook." And she said, "Yeah, that's for all those ideas you have." She says, "Write them down." And then every quarter or so, she'll say, "Seena, go get the notebook." And then I go get the notebook, and then I pick a thing and then we start something different, but.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's great.

Seena Hodges:

Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, we could keep going. We should keep going. It's just the rest of the season it'll be fine.

Melanie Hoffert:

We should, yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

But I want to get back to a critical point. We talked about you breaking into song because of your love for musicals. And I want to know, what are the sort of things in your life that might have you break into song? What brings you joy?

Seena Hodges:

Oh gosh. I am a huge lover of, this is really weird, but I love horror films and I love scary things.

Melanie Hoffert:

I'm so excited about this.

Seena Hodges:

One of my favorite holidays is Halloween, so I'm so excited about watching scary movies. Now, my therapist would say, this is trauma yelling. But it is something that I enjoy doing. So what brings me joy is knowing that I have three hours and I can binge-watch something on television. So I love to do that. What brings me joy is food, good food, good beverages, some laughs with friends. That always brings me a lot of joy. Those are the main things. I think my family brings me a great amount of joy. A lot of laughs. So you know me, I love to laugh and make jokes and just kind of hang out and veg and those kinds of things. But I also really, really love to dress up and go places. So it's kind of simple I suppose.

Nadege Souvenir:

Also, if you watch Scandal and How To Get Away With Murder, that answer would help you understand why she couldn't pick either one, because you just named a bunch of the stuff that shows up in I'm just saying-

Seena Hodges:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, yes.

Melanie Hoffert:

I can't wait to watch that. And nobody in my life will watch scary movies with me Seena. So yeah.

Seena Hodges:

Oh, are you serious?

Nadege Souvenir:

You can go ahead and do that.

Seena Hodges:

Oh my gosh. I just... And for me, I also need people to understand that it's not just this big umbrella. There's psychological thrillers, then there's the stabby movies, and then there's the blood and gore. Then there are the documentaries about the serial killers. So it has tentacles. So you have to know which... Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

You could also just not like the whole octopus.

Seena Hodges:

That's fair. And so, yeah, to your point, we're not judging folks for what they like or don't like.

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh my goodness. All right. I think on that note, we're going to let those of you who need to go watch a romantic comedy to switch up your energy, do that. But Seena, thank you so much for joining us today.

Melanie Hoffert:

Thank you, Seena.

Seena Hodges:

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate both of you.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's great.

Seena Hodges:

I so appreciate you.

Melanie Hoffert:

Nadege, that was such a good conversation. So fun. She's just a delight.

Nadege Souvenir:

Absolutely.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh my goodness. And it's not the easiest topic, but we've had some good laughs, including about the horror movie. And listen, we have listeners, I'm going to ask people to write in with a campaign to have you watch a scary movie with me.

Nadege Souvenir:

I don't, I mean-

Melanie Hoffert:

And I don't want you to do things you don't want to do, but I just think there might be a little, it might be hysterical for us to go through this. With Seena, I hope she would join us.

Nadege Souvenir:

Listen, we'll see. I'll talk about it. I will tell you right now, the blood and guts kind of situation scary, not my vibe.

Melanie Hoffert:

We'll go psychological.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes, we'll go psychological.

Nadege Souvenir:

Keep me awake for weeks on weeks, having dreams about this stuff. But apparently maybe-

Melanie Hoffert:

I don't-

Nadege Souvenir:

... that's what I need to spur some creativity. Who knows? We'll see.

Melanie Hoffert:

All right, well there was a lot of very serious meat though from our conversation. What stood out to you today?

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, okay, so here's the thing. We could go through this, but I'm going to cheat a little bit and just remind our listeners, there's a whole book that can let you sort of part two, part three and part four of our conversation today. And so out now Seena's From Ally to Accomplice: How to Lead as a Fierce Anti-Racist, grab the book. And I will say this, full disclosure, we're friends, clearly we're friendly, but the book is written in her voice. It's not an academic tome, it's not a corporate-speak kind of situation. It is written like the person you just heard talk to us talking to you in this book.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Which is why I read it so quickly. I felt like I was with a kind but firm friend. Like "I am not going to let you off the hook. Listen."

Nadege Souvenir:

It's kind of like that moment when your friend gives you the real truth and you didn't necessarily want it, but you needed it and you appreciate it because it was done out of love.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes, exactly. And she let us know that you can get the book on her website. So definitely go there and start buying those books.

Nadege Souvenir:

I don't know what else to say. I think do we just send our listeners off in search of this book and give them a little bit more time to read?

Melanie Hoffert:

Let's do that.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right. Thanks all for listening.

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You!. You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You Podcast and on Instagram at soappreciateyou.

Melanie Hoffert:

We'd also appreciate you taking a moment to write us a review. And if you like our show, be sure to follow I So Appreciate You! on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Nadege Souvenir:

Have a question or topic suggestion? Email us at podcast@spmcf.org. Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You!.