Co-hosts Nadege Souvenir and Melanie Hoffert take a Seinfeld approach to their final episode of the season by unwinding and talking about nothing; well, nothing in particular and “doing” nothing.

Instead of tackling sometimes tough and complex issues that arise in the workplace and philanthropy, they take time to address the commonalities their guests had this season. One theme that emerged is the pressing need for creative people to create time to rest and decompress.

Nadege:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You!, a raw, funny, and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders and humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends.

When we get together, our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege:

So, we're inviting you to join us and some incredible guests as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better.

Welcome everyone to the last episode of the season for I So Appreciate You.

Melanie:

I can't even believe we're here.

Nadege:

I know.

Melanie:

Actually.

Nadege:

I mean, it's been a pretty great season.

Melanie:

It's been an amazing season, an amazing season. Yes. Well, we don't have a guest today.

Nadege:

No-

Melanie:

But we're going to-

Nadege:

... it's just us.

Melanie:

Well, you have-

Nadege:

Are we each other's guests?

Melanie:

We are.

Nadege:

Oh, my gosh.

Melanie:

Which will lead into something I'm very excited to do. We're going to popcorn our own this or that question for each other. Do you want to do it all at once, or should we go back and forth, Nadege?

Nadege:

Oh, this is it. Let's go back and forth.

Melanie:

Okay. Yeah. This is like-

Nadege:

You start though.

Melanie:

Okay. Good.

Nadege:

All right.

Melanie:

And I just have to say this was fun to do because as I'm going through all these ideas, I'm like, "I know that about Nadege. I know that. I know that." So, these are some simple things but I'm like, "I don't exactly know how she's going to answer these." All right. My first one. Logic or emotion.

Nadege:

Yikes. I don't like that at all.

Melanie:

I knew you wouldn't like it. I knew that. Enough about you to know that.

Nadege:

That is...

Melanie:

Well, she's thinking everyone.

Nadege:

I'm really thinking then the silence is deafening in here for us. Where does instinct fall in the logic or emotion?

Melanie:

Oh, I would put that in emotion.

Nadege:

Yeah. So, I think because of instinct, I'm probably going to have to pick emotion, but I'm a pretty logical person.

Melanie:

You're very logical. I come to you for logic.

Nadege:

I know-

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

... but I'm also pretty instinctual though. So, yeah, we're going to say, yep. Okay.

Melanie:

All right. She's going to invent. She just invented an answer, actually.

Nadege:

Yeah. I did. Well, those are the best answers, right?

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

All right. For you, tattoo or piercing?

Melanie:

Oh. Uh. I have to say piercing because I have an unusual piercing. By unusual, I mean,

Nadege:

Right. I was like, "Now, all the listeners are trying to figure out what is unusual about your piercing-"

Melanie:

Meaning I pierced a body part that I don't wear that I can talk about. So, do you know what it is?

Nadege:

No.

Melanie:

Oh, I have-

Nadege:

This is actually new information.

Melanie:

... my eyebrow pierced.

Nadege:

Oh, yeah-

Melanie:

Yeah. So-

Nadege:

Well, you don't wear a ring.

Melanie:

No, I do not. I mean, I think it was back in the day it suited. Oh, I don't even know if it ever suited me, but I did it. I'm going to come to work next week with that in. This is...

Nadege:

All right. Well, we'll grab a picture and put that on social media channels.

Melanie:

All right. My next question for you is sun or moon?

Nadege:

Moon.

Melanie:

Oh.

Nadege:

Moons are so cool. I mean, don't get me wrong. Sunlight is amazing.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

But the pitch blackness of a night with this gorgeous, well-lit moon, and then, the shades that fall around it, that make the night a little less black.

Melanie:

Yes. Oh.

Nadege:

So, pretty.

Melanie:

I love that you said moon at night. I hoped you would.

Nadege:

All right. Crunchy peanut butter or smooth peanut butter.

Melanie:

Ooh. Gosh. This shouldn't be that hard. I-

Nadege:

That's hilarious that you're thinking about this one.

Melanie:

... I'm going to go smooth.

Nadege:

Okay. But you had to think about it though.

Melanie:

I like them both. There's a debate in my family about it, and I'm just kind of, I will eat them both. I do like smooth, but I like things with nuts in them. But maybe not peanut butter.

Nadege:

Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. I would be smooth as well. Crunchy is gross.

Melanie:

Okay. Oh, so you have a set opinion.

Nadege:

I will eat peanuts. Great.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

I will... Whatever. But crunchy peanut butter, why? Why are we doing this? That's so unnecessary.

Melanie:

This one's... I don't know about this question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Would you rather walk barefoot in a public restroom or get-

Nadege:

Oh my God. I don't even know what the other option is, and I'm so cringing right now.

Melanie:

Everybody's face in here. It's just like, "Or get poisoned."

Nadege:

What? What kind of question is this? I'm so glad we didn't put you in charge of guest question.

Melanie:

I thought it was funny.

Nadege:

I mean, poisoned to death? Poisoned just like a little sick-

Melanie:

Just a little sick not death.

Nadege:

I mean, honestly, possibly poisoned because walking barefoot in a public bath, I would have to do that. Poisoned could be like... I had food poisoning, and I didn't know I was eating poison. I just don't know that I could knowingly be like, "Let me take my shoes off." Oh, God.

Melanie:

Isn't it awful? I know you can't. Yeah. Sorry. End on that one but...

Nadege:

I mean, seriously, this was a moment where we should have had video because the entire room recoiled-

Melanie:

Yes. Everybody's face is cringes. I can't even speak...cringes.

Nadege:

All right. My last one, clothes on the floor or in the hamper?

Melanie:

Oh, shoot. Emily might listen to this. Shoot. On the floor-

Nadege:

Emily, don't listen to this.

Melanie:

... on the floor. On the floor for a minute. I'll get them into a place, but if I'm just end of the day crawling in bed, they're going to be on the floor for a minute. How about you? You're a hamper.

Nadege:

No. 100% no. I'm married to a straight-up hamper. Everything has its place. I have a hamper and I use it. Yes. But the reality is, in real time, if you walked into my room right now, there's probably a pile near the bed. There is definitely two piles on the floor in the closet. Yeah. There are always piles.

Melanie:

Well, I love that. I did have a bonus question for you.

Nadege:

Oh, God-

Melanie:

I'm not going to make you-

Nadege:

... I'm scared.

Melanie:

... I'm not going to make you answer but I was cracking myself up with this. Season one or season two?

Nadege:

Ooh.

Melanie:

You can't answer. Because for those of you who may not know, I'm a new host for season two, so I kind wanted to hear.

Nadege:

Yeah. That's just going to be a both.

Melanie:

All right. Yeah. Both.

Nadege:

That's just going to be-

Melanie:

Well, that was fun.

Nadege:

Yeah. That was fun. And also, why did we not think of these questions earlier in the season?

Melanie:

Right. Because guests wouldn't answer the one about the bathroom one. You'd fire me. You'd be like, "No. Do not ask our guests about walking barefoot in the bathroom."

Nadege:

That is probably fair. But I have been reflecting on our season which has been amazing. And thinking about how different all of our guests were, and yet, there are a few things that connected them. There was talk about mental health came up more than once, talk about creating space to balance life and work, responsibilities came up. But what I realized is each and every person we talked to this season is a creator or creative. But I'm going to say creator because I don't know that they would all call themselves a creative. And I just think it's so fascinating because I promise you, we did not do that on purpose.

Melanie:

No. It was a through line though. We talked about entrepreneurship, but I think you're actually honing it even more specifically because everyone was a creator.

Nadege:

Right. They created something. They created solutions. They created art. They created a new role. They created an organization. They created an app.

Melanie:

Right. Yes.

Nadege:

Right? Everyone in some way, and so, that got me thinking because I've been thinking about creativity a lot just lately because why not?

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

And then, once upon a time, I might have called myself a creative. And I saw this thing on Instagram which stopped me dead in my tracks. And somebody posted this phrase "Creative people need time to sit around and do nothing."

Melanie:

Yeah. That's true.

Nadege:

And I thought to myself, when is the last time I have sat around and done nothing?

Melanie:

Yes, yes.

Nadege:

And like you're creative in so many ways, and I think we can see it in the work that you lead in marketing, but then, you're also an author. What does that mean to you? The whole... Just you need time to sit around and do nothing.

Melanie:

Ugh. I'm really chewing on that because I think it's so important, especially when... As you mentioned, all of our guests and us and our colleagues were doing, we have work, work, work, work, work. We fill all of our hours. You and I talk a lot about our calendars and we're trying to find space. And then, there's the home responsibilities and the relationships and the boards, everything. And so, honestly, when I hear that I think, if I have time to do nothing, I feel the pressure to create.

Nadege:

Right.

Melanie:

I need to go, right.

Nadege:

Okay. So, you're filling it.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

With creative. But you're not doing nothing in order to get to the creation.

Melanie:

No. And so, I'm really going to take this to heart because I do think there's something to it. We need to be replenished. We have seasons of our creativity, and there is a winter, the dormant season that has to exist in order for us to be producers. And so, how did it strike you? Because I'm sure I know your schedule. You're not sitting around doing nothing.

Nadege:

No, not at all.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

So, what does this make me think about? It makes me think about I have to make time to do nothing. So, you said it yourself. If you have free time, there's an urge to fill it. And I have my cup runneth over. I'm probably on too many boards. There are the work responsibilities, life responsibilities, blah, blah, blah. We all have a lot of stuff to do.

I have been recently looking at my calendar and trying to figure out how to better zone my life. And that wasn't even about creating, doing nothing. It was literally about making it feel a little bit less multitasking. Because frankly, we all suck at that. Let's just be really honest.

Everybody thinks they're good at it. We're all terrible at it. And so, one of the things that I'm thinking about is just doing nothing for a week. Taking a week off and doing nothing.

Melanie:

This is brave. This could be a doing nothing revolution. You could start it.

Nadege:

I know. And so, I have identified the dates. They're not on my calendar yet. They will be after this podcast airs. And I need to figure out where to go because I have to get away from my life so that I can do nothing. Because if I'm at home, I'm not going to do nothing. The cats are going to make me feed them. I'm going to feel compelled to cook dinner, whatever. I'm going to try to do stuff, and yeah.

Melanie:

I have a question about the nothingness.

Nadege:

Yeah.

Melanie:

Do you think it counts to do nothing with Netflix in front of your face?

Nadege:

No.

Melanie:

Okay.

Nadege:

Because I think that I already use Netflix, or I just like to call Mind Candy TV. You've had a stressful day, your brain has been working on complicated issues, and I'm like, "I just need to watch something that makes me happy or feel almost..." Some people will have a big dessert or whatever, so, I call it brain candy, but it isn't nothing because you're actively using your time to do that. And so, no. I would not be binging on shows in this week.

Melanie:

So, this would be really a quiet time where you're allowing your brain to fill, where you're allowing yourself to regenerate. I really like this idea.

Nadege:

Right. Allowing myself to just sit somewhere and look at a beautiful view and just sit there.

Melanie:

Yeah. So, tell me how you think doing that is you can bring what doing nothing did for you back to your life?

Nadege:

How do I think? Who knows?

Melanie:

So, we'll see. Oh, this could be a little kickoff season three with a recap on-

Nadege:

With like, what has happened but I don't know. I think that we've all probably seen this happen in many ways. I used to have more time in my workday. I think I've talked about this on the show that I'm obsessed with whiteboards. And if I haven't, I'm obsessed with whiteboards. And so, that's how I ideate. I write all over the whiteboards, but the part that I don't often talk about is after I write a bunch of what seems like nonsense and chaos on the whiteboard, I just need to sit and stare at it. I have not had time to whiteboard and stare.

Melanie:

Okay.

Nadege:

I've had time to write things down. But it basically is just a list on a wall. It's not actually the brainstorming and the ideating into just ruminate on an issue. And so, I'm hoping by taking a week off and pulling myself away, I will ruminate on all of the things. Whatever bubbles up will be, whatever I'm supposed to be focused on in that week.

Melanie:

Oh, I love this. So, it's going to be a spontaneous creation of something.

Nadege:

Yeah.

Melanie:

Oh, I...

Nadege:

You're trying to find a word or a definition for me?

Melanie:

I think what you're talking about, I do think it's related to being... I'm just thinking in my writing right now where you're allowing... Let's just call it the universe or whatever.

Nadege:

I'll go with it.

Melanie:

Yeah. You're allowing the space in yourself to receive as opposed to your chasing it because we're chasing ideas, we're chasing work, we're chasing production. And I do think that going into this space of nothingness is allowing you to be a vessel to receive whatever's going to come out, and that's exciting.

Nadege:

Yeah. It is.

Melanie:

Can I interject one more thing?

Nadege:

Yeah, you can. Absolutely.

Melanie:

So, the other thing you're talking about too is this time management, and I think it's related. There's the nothingness, but there's also the way we can structure our lives so that we are actually more productive, not multitasking.

I brought this book because I thought we were going to get in this to this today. And until you and I were chatting about it I'm like, "Why am I obsessed with reading this?" It's called Daily Rituals by Mason Currey. And it has 233 writers, artists, architects from all the last 200 years. And it just talks about their schedules, what they do in the morning, how they get up, the walks they take. Oh, I'm looking at... Here's Sigmund Freud. That even has Freud in here.

Nadege:

Wow. Okay.

Melanie:

Mozart... All these different people. But I wanted to just mention that because I do think there's something special about being able to set up a ritual that allows you, and maybe it's even in the morning, there's just a pause where you're doing nothing, staring out of the window, but it allows you to go into your day and have that structured time where you're going to be more productive. So, I'll be interested too to see how your schedule and my schedule now that we're talking about it because I'm going to do some nothingness. Do some nothingness this weekend maybe. Can inform how we can be more productive, or am I just bringing it back to the wrong-

Nadege:

Or maybe not even productive.

Melanie:

... end goal.

Nadege:

No. That is I think the right end goal sometimes.

Melanie:

Okay.

Nadege:

If we're at work, it's probably ultimately about being productive for whatever our work goals are. But is it even more engaged? There are times where I find myself in one meeting thinking about the next meeting, thinking about the thing that I have to-

Melanie:

You're not.

Nadege:

... do tomorrow.

Melanie:

Present.

Nadege:

And I'm... I'm not even present in this moment. So, like, am I going to a week from now know what's happening in this half hour, hour this Zoom, in person. And so, I don't know, does shaking off the cobwebs and taking a break help recenter so that we can just be more present in what we're doing?

Melanie:

Yes. Yes. I love that. Nadege, I'm so glad you brought it up because as I look at the season we've had, I would never thought that we would be talking about doing nothing because we've had such productive people. But I do think that there is this something you're tapping into that to be creative and all of our guests were creative, and for us as individuals, we all do need to have that space. And I know that we talked about that, how challenging it can be to make that space, so we can put that out there to the universe that we need to do more of that.

Nadege:

And I think we all need to do more of that. And so, I just kind of love learning how other people are doing it. I think I'm actually going to go back and listen to our guests, and they all talked about it in some way, not expressly and not explicitly. But now that I feel like I found this through line, go back and listen to each one and find it again.

Melanie:

Yeah. Where are they?

Nadege:

And hear different ideas. Because maybe going away for a week is the absolute wrong thing for me to do. To be clear folks, I'm not going to a cabin in the woods. It's going to be bougie AF. That's not my vibe. So, worst case scenario, I have had some nice time to myself in a nice place.

Melanie:

With some good views.

Nadege:

Yes. With some good views. But what if I find that doesn't work? But maybe I can learn something from one of our guests and in something that they said that will give me another way to try it until I find whatever works for me.

Melanie:

Yeah, that sounds great. Well, should we talk about season coming back?

Nadege:

I mean, we're coming back, right?

Melanie:

Yes-

Nadege:

I mean-

Melanie:

We're coming back.

Nadege:

... absolutely. But we're coming back after we take a break.

Melanie:

Ah perfect closing. Well, thank you to everyone who have listened to us this season. It's been just a pleasure to share these wonderful guests and insights with everybody.

Nadege:

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You. You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You Podcast and on Twitter and Instagram @soappreciateyou.

Melanie:

We'd also appreciate you taking a moment to write us a review. And if you like our show, be sure to follow I So Appreciate You on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Nadege:

Have a question or topic suggestion, email us at podcast@spmcf.org.

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You.