In this episode of I So Appreciate You!, co-hosts Nadege Souvenir and Melanie Hoffert discuss cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation with Anishinaabe artist, advocate and cultural educator Adrienne M. Benjamin. In addition to Adrienne, they also take time to discuss this complex topic with another surprise guest, Dr. Eric Jolly, president & CEO of the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation.

As Reconciliation Advisor for Minnetonka, Adrienne is working to bridge the gap between the Indigenous community and a white-owned business by internally shifting its culture.

As a result of her work, the company is creating opportunities for Indigenous artists among several other restorative actions.

Links

Adrienne Benjamin’s Website

Follow Adrienne on Instagram

Follow Adrienne on Facebook

Minnetonka Website

Nadege Souvenir:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You!, a raw, funny, and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders and humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the St. Paul Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends. When we get together. Our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege Souvenir:

We're inviting you to join us and some incredible guests as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better.

Melanie Hoffert:

Hello everyone. Welcome to today's episode. We get to spend time with Adrienne Benjamin, who is the reconciliation advisor to the company Minnetonka. In 2020, they made a very serious and public commitment to reparations. And so we're going to talk about her job, which it's the first time I've heard of this position, so I'm very excited to dig into it and all that it means. Nadege, we have a lot to cover.

Nadege Souvenir:

We do, and it's so important. But it's also so interesting because, right? She's going to be talking about cultural appropriation, which is big and deep. But I just keep thinking how often this concept kind of shows up in fashion. A couple of weeks ago I was out shopping at the Minneapolis Vintage Market and I drug ... Drag, drug?

Melanie Hoffert:

I don't know, but can you drug me there sometime? Because I need some clothes. Okay.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. Let's go to the next one.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

But I made Joshua come with me, and we were looking on a shelf and he pulled a shirt out, and he was like, "Oh, what do you think about this?" And I had seen the shirt, and it was loosely and poorly described sort of a red Chinese style shirt. And I literally looked at him and said, "Can I wear this?"

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

Now, whether or not I could, it wasn't my size, so the conversation didn't last very long. But just thinking about Adrienne and the work that she's doing, that little sort of silly moment. I also think that I didn't ponder on it too much because I'm still a little salty about that trip. And I'm going to tell you why.

Melanie Hoffert:

Why is that?

Nadege Souvenir:

Like I said, I brought Joshua to the market and he was coming as a, "Hey, we're going to do this, and then maybe we'll go to brunch." And so I find this one cute sweater. I'll show it to you sometime.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay.

Nadege Souvenir:

This man left the market with four jackets, one of them Dior, one of them Versace, perfect fit. Help me understand how we go to a market because I want to go, and he's leaving rocking vintage designer threads that fit him perfectly.

Melanie Hoffert:

Did he share these on his stories on Instagram by chance?

Nadege Souvenir:

He did.

Melanie Hoffert:

Because he was looking really fine in those.

Nadege Souvenir:

He posted a picture and I just ... I'm still a little sour about it, so now next time I go, I can't take him. Yeah, you definitely get to come.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay, good.

Nadege Souvenir:

And we'll have a little fun.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right, that sounds great. Nadege, I think we're fun. Do you want to know why?

Nadege Souvenir:

Why?

Melanie Hoffert:

Because we are good now at grabbing spontaneous guests. We had your daughter join us-

Nadege Souvenir:

That's true.

Melanie Hoffert:

The other day and had a great conversation. And we were just in the hallway and spotted someone that we wanted to talk to. Our ... Well, our boss.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, our president and CEO, Dr. Eric Jolly.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Yes. Eric, thanks for jumping on with us for a little bit.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

I think I want to say you're welcome.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, we'll see how it goes. Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, we could probably talk about anything, but just to warm us up, we're going to give you the same three quick questions that we're ultimately going to give our guests. First question, introvert or extrovert?

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Introvert, hands down. Measured by anterior reticular activating system in my brain. It's confirmed medically.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay. But I just want to point out you're the kind of introvert that feels also totally comfortable speaking to a room of 3,000 people.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Much more comfortable with 3,000 than three, or happy to be sitting in front of her.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right, then next question. Beach side resort or hillside cottage?

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Which is further from people in civilization?

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay. That's not ... But-

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Given my brother's hillside-

Nadege Souvenir:

Hillside cottage? Nice.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Cottage. Because I can take a nice walk, feed the birds, and enjoy myself.

Nadege Souvenir:

Excellent. And then finally, write an email or write a letter?

Dr. Eric Jolly:

If I have time, write the letter.

Nadege Souvenir:

Indeed. Indeed.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Absolutely.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, we'll be looking for that letter.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. I've never gotten a letter. What's going on?

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. Yeah. Eric, today we have a special guest, Adrian Benjamin, and we're going to talk a lot with her about the work she's doing. And one of the things that Nadege and I have been working through is this notion of cultural appropriation, which is a big topic.

And what I was saying before we started recording this is I think, for some people, we really need to break it down for why it is even important, and why it matters, and why it can be harmful. And since you're a former professor who is really talented at teaching these complex concepts, and I know you do work around this as well, how would you respond to that? What is it, and why is it harmful?

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Wow.

Melanie Hoffert:

I know.

Nadege Souvenir:

The easy question.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

The easy question. I don't want to have the professor's textbook definition of cultural appropriation.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's why ... Yeah.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

But it is about distorting someone else's culture. It's about playing off of someone else's culture with a sense of agency and legitimacy, which is unearned and ungrounded in experience. And so it's cultural appropriation when I tell you how the others think, act, do, or if I pretend to represent something of them.

It's not cultural appropriation to reference, to build off of, and to acknowledge. And I think it's important to be able to say that I as an artist have influenced others outside of my culture. But it is not appropriate for them to say, "Look at how I do Cherokee double wall baskets."

Melanie Hoffert:

Right. Right.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

And I think that's one of the nuances that people miss, engagement with another person's culture. Trying to gain facility with it and communicate across it is a wonderful, joyful thing that most people of color have experience with since the day they were born.

But we want others to have and get to know us, and I think we need to encourage that. But it is not the same as taking ownership or having agency with it. That's a distinction that I make.

Nadege Souvenir:

Do you ever think, just a follow-up question, there's the line between, I think what you're describing could maybe be broadly characterized as appreciation versus appropriation. Does that line move, or is it placed or fixed in time?

Melanie Hoffert:

That's a good question.

Nadege Souvenir:

In your estimation.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

I think that line moves according to time and according to stress. And so when understanding the need for someone's identity to be expressed and present is strong because of social stress, and that line is firm and much more present in everyone's life. There's a movement in the American Indian community, we are still here, wash.

And it's coming from a sense of, too many people put us in a historical perspective and they don't understand that every day we're still present. Every day native women are accosted and disappear at a higher rate than almost any other culture. Every day we have different challenges, and if we can't acknowledge that we are still here, we'll become someone's appropriated memory.

Nadege Souvenir:

Wow. Okay. I feel like we could unpack this all in a whole episode, but I also know that we grabbed you out of-

Dr. Eric Jolly:

I'm sorry.

Nadege Souvenir:

Of your schedule.

Melanie Hoffert:

But I mean you say that that wasn't the professor's definition, but ... No, but you are a natural teacher, and that was really, really helpful, Eric.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Thank you.

Melanie Hoffert:

I appreciate you.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Thank you. It's fun to be here and having these conversations. What a special environment for me to come to work in every day when I can have people like you asking questions like this, and know that this is what we do here.

Melanie Hoffert:

And now we know you're going to be hiding when you see recording equipment up here, from here on out. But yeah, we're-

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Absolutely. That's a mistake I will not make again. I'll go out for lunch.

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, thank you for stopping by today. We appreciate it.

Dr. Eric Jolly:

Thank you.

Nadege Souvenir:

And we'll be right back with our guest, Adrian Benjamin. I So Appreciate You! is just one of the many initiatives we are working on at the St. Paul and Minnesota Foundation. Want to learn more about how we aim to create an equitable, just and vibrant Minnesota? Join our email list by visiting us at spmcf.org.

While you're there, make sure to check out our blog and follow us on social media. Thank you for tuning in today. If you have not yet had a chance to listen to past episodes of I So Appreciate You!, visit spmcf.org/podcast to catch up. You can also find us on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Welcome back. I am so excited to introduce you all to our guest today, Adrienne Benjamin. We could probably spend the entire episode going through your background because it's so fascinating. But I'm going to just do a couple of bullet points so that our listeners get to know you just a little bit better.

You are an artist, and also particularly a master dress maker, a community builder, Anishinaabe, and a member of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe. And you're a reconciliation advisor. And we're going to come back to that because I imagine we might have some listeners who are like, "What's a reconciliation advisor?"

Melanie Hoffert:

Adrian, we have just three quick either or questions for you. And I have a bet on this first one, because I've now spent some time with you online, and I'll see if I'm right.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Adrienne Benjamin:

I swing all the way introvert all the time, which surprises people.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, I'm surprised based on some of the conversations I've listened to. Okay. I was wrong. Beach side resort or hillside cottage?

Adrienne Benjamin:

Hillside cottage.

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh, you didn't even hesitate on that one. Is there an image in your mind when you-

Adrienne Benjamin:

I love Paradise Valley in Montana. I've visited there a couple of times and that's like where I feel really peaceful.

Melanie Hoffert:

Your happy place? Great. Write an email or write a letter?

Adrienne Benjamin:

Ooh, I like the letter. I write some poetry and write with some friends.

Melanie Hoffert:

Wonderful.

Adrienne Benjamin:

To me, those are still meaningful things.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. I wish we wrote more letters to each other in this time and place.

Nadege Souvenir:

I know. I mean, think about back in the days. Now people find old letters and you sort of relive correspondence. No one's going through my 70,000 emails to relive correspondent.

Melanie Hoffert:

No. No.

Adrienne Benjamin:

My daughter can't read cursive. That was an opener for me. I was like, what? Yeah, she's 13. That's sad. The letter writing is not-

Melanie Hoffert:

Right.

Nadege Souvenir:

We got to bring it back.

Melanie Hoffert:

We do.

Nadege Souvenir:

All right. We're starting a campaign. We're bringing back letter writing.

Melanie Hoffert:

All right, let's do it.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yes, I'd have to improve my cursive too, but that's a whole different thing.

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, so Adrienne, one of the things I said about you in the intro that people might be less familiar with is that you're a reconciliation advisor, and can you help our listeners kind of understand generally what that is? And then even maybe a little bit of how you found yourself in that role.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Certainly. It was a title that I actually got to make for myself. I was doing some work with a lovely woman named Pamela Standing, and she works for the Minnesota Indigenous Business Association. And we were doing some ... I was doing side work with her just on contract. We had many great conversations about social justice. All kinds of stuff came up and throughout our times, and one day she called me and she said, "Hey, I've been getting reached out to by this company."

Didn't name them at first. "And they're done some appropriating, and they want to redo or better their situation." And she was like, "I know some people are right away, absolutely no, had zero want to take that on. How do you feel?"

And I was like, "Well, I'm here to listen. I'll listen and I'll have a first conversation." And I ended up having a first conversation with both Jori Miller Sherer, and David Miller, who are president and CEO, who are also daughter and father. And yeah, I felt the genuine care and compassion, and I felt like they really were in it for the right reasons, and that it wasn't just a one and done situation and it was going to be something that was going to be ongoing and continuing.

And so therefore something I could get behind. And we kind of started ... It started with, "Where do we go from here? How do we even start this process?" They knew that they had been getting called out for years, that they wanted to make some changes, and they just didn't know how. Where do we start?

I think in this work, and I know it, you can take a wrong step and say the wrong thing so easily. And I don't blame them for being scared or nervous about it. And so it took us a lot of time and a lot of just talking about what felt comfortable for them as a business, as people. Right?

And yeah, then I decided that I would kind of have a role with them, which has ended up actually, Jori and I meet every Monday and talk about all the things that are coming up right now. We just rolled out the shoes that I'm wearing with a Red Lake native artist named Lucy [inaudible 00:15:17].

She would be the first beaded artwork by an actual Indigenous Native American that Minnetonka has had on their shoes in their whole 75 years, which sounds maybe amazing to some people because obviously that's the shtick of it, the whole idea of the appropriation.

But yeah, so we have a lot in the works. And there's actually five artists, including myself right now that are working behind the scenes to redo fabrics, beading designs, web tapes, redoing like the conches that are on the silver metallic pieces that are on the shoes to have them actually be authentic native design instead of native inspired. Right?

It's kind of a whole revamp of the line, which has been appropriated all this time, making it legit. Yeah. We kind of were just in a room and they were asking me what I thought my job title should be, and I was like, "Let's do reconciliation advisor." One thing that came up that was really interesting was the word moccasin actually is an Anishinaabe word.

[inaudible 00:16:31] means shoes. And so even we called ... This was my favorite new word that I learned that I did not honestly know is ... Their PR person was like, "Oh, it's an anglicization." And I was like, "Yeah, that's what it is." I was like, "Of [inaudible 00:16:45], the Anishinaabe word." Right? New things, we'd even talked about that.

Yeah, it's really been interesting and a learning experience all around for me and for the artists that we're working with, for them even in contract and in the business law, and of, how do we do this right? How do we guarantee that these art pieces aren't taken advantage of outside of, and appropriated again? Right? Now that they're out. Right? How do they safeguard it as a company, too? It's just been lots of learning. Really fun.

Melanie Hoffert:

There's so much about your job I want to dig into. I want to take a half step back though and refer to another interview that I heard with you where I just stopped and really sat with something that you shared, which was about how when the company started, you had family members who were selling goods. And you tried to paint a picture for people to try to understand how it must have felt to have these handmade, beautiful pieces that they were trying to sell for their livelihood.

And then have a company that mass-produced these designs that were taken from your relatives and others. And this was during a time when native people were being persecuted for their religion. Their language was not allowed in schools, et cetera. I wondered if you, for folks who are maybe like, "Why is this even important?" Just really help to unpack why this work is important for the deep lineage of harm that's been created.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Sure. Just to go a little bit further on-

Melanie Hoffert:

Thank you. Yes.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah, on that. I live in Mille Lacs. I live actually on the east shore. Most of the tribal land are part of my reservation, reserve. I don't even know, I hate all of those words. But the lands are on the west side of the lake near [inaudible 00:18:50] Mille Lacs, there back in the early 1900s, all the way through to the sixties, seventies, was a place called Fort Mille Lacs.

And then also that is where the Mille Lacs Indian Museum and Trading Post exists. Even in my growing up, I'm 39, and I remember Fort Mille Lacs existing, and you'd walk into that place and it would have actual native art. Handmade jingle dresses, moccasins, birch bark, everything that Anishinaabe people made. And they would even have these, the only way I can describe it is Wild Bill type shows where they would have Ojibwe people dancing, in their style and with the drum, everything.

And it was kind of, my family in specific, they made birch bark. But there was families who did a plethora of other things, right? And there on 169, my grandma would talk about that her grand grandparents, and even parents, her dad sold those birch bark bird houses, right? That I have a couple. They're beautiful, right? Handmade, amazing. And all of those folks relied on that money because Mille Lacs has always been a tourism area, even back then. Right?

And so in a employee meeting, and even with the Millers, I pointed out to say, here backs up this truck of Minnetonka moccasins to now sell in these spaces that were meant for Indigenous art. Right? What did that do? How did that impact just Mille Lacs? And that's not the only place. I mean, you go up north, you go down south, anywhere that was happening, that native folks had a place to sell their goods because that's the other part.

I've had a lot of conversations in my career and my life, and I get the old, "Why didn't they just do the bootstraps?" And native people didn't have that. That was the way they were trying to fit into this colonized economy. Right? People couldn't get jobs. People didn't have those skills. For many years, Ojibwe culture and belief systems weren't allowed to happen either. Drum, any of that. But then we have this company that comes and wants to take on that idea, take on that livelihood of it when it wasn't okay to be it naturally.

But as long as I'm coming and taking them shoes and we're calling them something else, the way we pronounce it even is just, I think that paints a bigger picture of the theft, and of the why it was so damning. And I mean, I think that's why I feel great about the work now, is with Lucy, she's getting her work out there in a way I feel like ancestors will be proud. I'm just like, that's how it should have always been.

Ask, pay for it, help us lift up that work that you want to take and make your money on. If you have the ability, cool. You're still making money, but you can lift other people up in that work too. And that's what I feel like my job is there. It's deep. It's deep.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. No, it is. It is. There's like six questions rolling through my head right now, but I'm going to pull on that thread of it being deep. I mean, you're one person sitting in this space and the harm is generational. I mean, right? You're naming relatives and sort of the harm that they experienced. When you're helping a company go through sort of reconciliation work like this, how do you protect yourself in doing this work?

Adrienne Benjamin:

I rely deeply on ... I was very, very fortunate and to have elders that I've worked with throughout my life that have taken me under their wing, taught me the way that they believe and think, and dreams they had. And I think centering that in all of the work that I've ever done has been the way that I protect myself. And that's on even deeper than we just talked about.

That's on spiritual level. Some of them aren't here anymore. And trusting my friends too, because we all had the same experiences and, "Hey, what do you all think about this?" And a lot of them were like you, "Who's a better person than you? You have those elders' guidance. You have a north star that is really strong in yourself to do the work the right way." And it was like, man, you make me go really deep here. I'm almost getting emotional about it.

But really, it was scary because it was like, I did feel that. I'm like, "Yeah, who else?" Because I could think about it like someone else who might not have had my same experiences, being able to name those things, to feel it, to have it in my family. And not to say because it's not anyone else's fault either that they don't have it. Because of the trauma, all of it. Right?

But I just thought, if not me, then who? And one time I had a really great mentor who was talked about, if we are not going to pick up those swords of power, bad people could pick them up too. And we have to be the ones to grab it sometimes, even if you don't think you're worthy of it. And so I was like, "Okay, I can do this. I got this." Yeah. That's kind of how I protect myself, and yeah, I rely on that knowledge that was instilled in me.

Nadege Souvenir:

Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah. Super-

Melanie Hoffert:

I had a-

Adrienne Benjamin:

We're going there.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. No. I had a related question because I was very touched by a quote that you shared about one of the elders. You quoted her saying she felt like everyone deserved a chance to change, everyone deserved to be educated, and that they deserved a chance to prove that their words and apologies had meaning behind them. And that was part of the comfort you took in that guidance, and taking this job.

But along with what Nadege was saying or asking about, how do you take care of yourself? I was curious about how as a broker among these and between these different communities, what your life is like trying to communicate and share perspectives when people just in society today, we do not hear each other. But you're in a very unique role where you're trying to broker this information. Just kind of curious how you do that. It's a day in the life of-

Adrienne Benjamin:

My goodness.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Well, I think that for me the brokering started on the home front in my daughter's school. The other fun fact about me is that my oldest daughter who's 19 has cerebral palsy, and anyone who's has a medically in-need child, you're in that school a lot complaining about a lot of different things. And I think that that honestly ... I'm always on some deep stuff. Anybody who talks to me, even Jori and I's Monday meetings, we're like, somehow we go into almost crying.

No, I'm just kidding. But it gets deep. But I've honestly give all that the strength, right? My daughter's situation has made me push harder for ... It's changed my heart in a way to want good for everyone because my life's been very hard because of that. The thing that's happened, I was very fortunate, and this was my idea. The commonality of what I hear of how I do it and how I maybe do it well is that I can put it into a story.

Maybe, and this is my personal thing of 15 years of therapy. I don't carry that necessary anger anymore, outwardly. And I think that I've just done the work enough, specifically in schools too, and where I live up north, nobody's hearing it, right? There was many times I've had jobs working with equity in education, right? In a school where we think we're having issues being heard in a city.

Up north is a completely, because the tables are turned there, and it's like are literally the 1% or so. I think it's just that. But one thing I will share on that note about how I do broker between it is I think I've found good ways of being calm, being understanding, being of both ends. Right? And I think the one thing that came up, what I was saying in that conversation with Stephanie and David, was that there has to be room for shame. Has to be room for shame. And if in that moment you meet that shame with anger, you're losing it. You lost that opening to get through.

And I think it takes practice, I'll say that. And I think understanding to allow that space, because a lot of times that's where we, who've been trespassed upon, find that anger real quick. That's the moment where some people want to go for the throat, right? Because oh, you feel it now. You feel it finally, right? But it has to be allowed, it has to be explored in that moment.

And honestly, I really felt that [inaudible 00:29:08] and David and Stephanie together, it was a new and different experience for them to be able to share that shame they felt going forward. Because both of them said, "When we started, that's where we were. Completely nowhere to go. We were just kind of treading water, right? And we didn't know what the next move was. We knew we needed to do it. We felt compelled and we felt the shame of it. What's the next move?"

And that's where, for them, one of the best compliments, and I think I've said it on another podcast, is David's like, "I don't know how you do this, but you'd make really hard conversations really feel easy. And you talk about the tough stuff with a smile." And I'm like, "Do I?" Because I've done it other ways too, and had to been in meetings where it wasn't that way. But I think people have to be ready too, and themselves.

I don't think that just any company can ... That's why I wanted that meeting. I think that's a really impactful point to talk about is you shouldn't just do this work because you're getting called out. If it doesn't speak to you, don't call me and expect me to explain it to you to make it make sense. Because it should already at least be that far for you or you're not doing it for the right reasons anyway, so don't do it at all. Legit.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean, in a way, that's like a secondary, third area, whatever level harm, that if you're like, "Oh, we got called out. Let's call somebody, get a couple of meetings, get a press shot."

Adrienne Benjamin:

Do a [inaudible 00:30:42]. Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right? Move it along, that's actually almost worse. Just compounding the injury.

Adrienne Benjamin:

And one thing Jori says that I really do appreciate, she's like, "This is the most important work that I'll ever do." And she's like, "And this work will go on within that company forever." They're completely committed to it, and that's super meaningful. Lots of love for Minnetonka on that. Because it's like, when we first started, I was like, I don't know. But then, yeah, Jori's my buddy now. We're like, yeah. And we get into good conversations, and it's just I'm excited for the artists that are going to be coming up through the products and everything else.

And to me, that's the heart work of it. And I honestly feel super grateful every day to do the work that I do. And it was like, yeah. And this happening was such a turn point for me. All of my prior work, I've always been an artist, but I did a lot of youth work prior to this happening, and the pandemic pushed me in a different direction.

I ended up meeting Pam, and then the Minnetonka, and then I'm on NPR in three weeks after that. It was crazy. Yeah, very cool. Amazing. I love the work that I'm doing with them and it's very inspiring every day.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, and I wanted to mention for listeners, just in terms of the outcome on the website, they talk about the reparations that they're making, and there's some very specific steps so people can go dig into that work. And if you don't mind me jumping in, Nadege?

Nadege Souvenir:

No, go for it.

Melanie Hoffert:

I had a question about ... Because you're talking about this. For those companies, and there's so many that have, whether intentionally or unintentionally over time, harmed specific communities, if not many communities and philanthropy, which we work in, is not without its problematic history. Right?

And so I'm just wondering what advice you might have for those organizations or individuals or leaders who really authentically are ready to do the work and make that next move.

Adrienne Benjamin:

I think, well, depending on what the work is, specifically.

Melanie Hoffert:

What the work is. It's very ... Yes.

Adrienne Benjamin:

And I want to just say one piece to what I said too, because I want to go back to say, if it doesn't align and you don't see it right now of why it should align and why you're getting called out, not to not do it, but maybe educate yourself more first before you go and try to just gloss over something. Because I always believe there's ...

I've had a lot of people that I thought, "Oh, my gosh. Why does this person keep coming to this meeting? All they're doing is just going against me every time." But then eventually, they have their moment. I just want to say that, go back and say I do believe people can change. But it's like there has to be a level of education that has to be done on your own, first. It can't always come on the backs of people of color, or pay us, period, to do help you do that work.

Melanie Hoffert:

Exclamation point, yeah.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Exclamation point. Okay? Yeah. But I think one thing that also I will say that I've heard echoed in this work that I've been doing is it isn't always easy to find a me, right? The somebody that can help you through that process. PR firms are generally not people of color that have been in experience. And so it's hard for people to find, how do I do this right?

It's kind of made me think. And being on the TCB podcast talking to Allison, she was like, "You're an entrepreneur. This is a thing." And I was like, "I'm just me." And we kind of went back and forth on that. Because I don't see it like that. I still get amazed at all of it, right? But I just feel like I'm just me in my little house on the press, truly. But I think reach out to folks. I have a website, and I think that there are-

Melanie Hoffert:

Which we'll share.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yes. And there are other folks like me willing to help, willing to, I love the word educate. I think that's the most important word in this work. Yeah, and just to get yourself prepared to really dig in. Because I think it's so much less as, and I'll say that specifically in philanthropy, it's not easy work. It's not like we're going to just put all these little ... Check all these boxes.

It's going to be a deep dive for you as a person. That work can't happen without that. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting concept because so many of us, maybe some people aren't that into their work, and maybe some people are, and it's like, but to do this, it's going to change you and your job or whatever it is. I hope your job is that meaningful to you. Because I think those two things go so hand in hand with the want and the why, and the moving it forward.

Melanie Hoffert:

Thank you for that. Yeah. You talked about when you enter this work, there's sometime the energy of anger, like burn it all down, it shouldn't exist. But I've heard, not necessarily specifically with the companies you've worked for, but could you envision a scenario where reconciliation means turning it over? Stepping out of the way of this thing that you've created, and that you've sort of built on the backs of others? And rather than giving others a little peace, you actually just give it away.

Adrienne Benjamin:

I could see that in many scenarios. Would it really happen logically in today's capital society is another question.

Melanie Hoffert:

There'd be a lot of contracts in place, I'm sure.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah. There's a huge push in Indigenous communities in this kind of hashtag land back, and it's happening in some cases. And I'm shocked that it's on tables because it blows my mind. And I think in those types of situations where ... And I think about this in a really different way because the county that I live in has been fighting my tribe over reservation boundaries for since I was in high school or before, obviously way before that.

But in the court systems for a long time, even just on boundaries that the tribe doesn't own anymore. Right? It's technically still reservation, but it's still owned by county Minnesota residents. And there's always this back and forth, "Well, if we say that's the boundary, then the tribe's going to start taxing." And there's like this ... When I think of it, I have a totally skewed view of when it could possibly happen, just because I've only seen people fight tooth and nail just even for ...

We have these signs that went up on the actual borders of the reservation, and they've been shot up so many times just because they're there. Right?

Melanie Hoffert:

Right, yeah. Because they exist.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah. I guess it would be lovely if ... But here's what I see. Here's what I see of if so that I can look at this in a everybody wins scenario in the work that I'm doing. I'll use Minnetonka as the example. If Minnetonka has done all of this, and appropriated and made their life's fortune on the backs of Indigenous art, we'll say that, I think it should be their life's mission then to make sure that they're raising up Indigenous people to maybe be their own shoe designers, to potentially grow their own business, to give back to the community in some way through ...

Which are actually things that we've talked about, to allow artists to teach traditional arts. How do we support that? Right? I feel like maybe it's not turning it over, but a building it back in just the same amount of energy that it was taken so easily. I don't know. I think that it's just so hard for me to think about someone being that cool, honestly. I don't know.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah. No. You're right.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah. In a wonderful world I see, I'm like, yeah, because it's come up in conversations, even with Minnetonka. You should give it to Indian people because ... You know what I mean? And I'm just like, "Well then what do the Millers do?" You know what I mean? It's a legit question. You know what I mean?

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, you've painted a picture of a beautiful reinvestment of, I mean, we're truly ...

Adrienne Benjamin:

I think that's what reconciliation is-

Melanie Hoffert:

Growth.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Now, and I heard something on ... I'm a total NPR nerd, but I listened and I had heard something that said somebody was talking about the Rondo neighborhood and they said, "This isn't just today or tomorrow or one policy. This is going to be work that continues just as long as the oppression continued." And I was like, "Love that. Love that."

That's what I think about it. If we can't do these turnovers, then you better work just as hard the other way. That's real. That's it. That's real reconciliation, yeah, to me. But yeah, I have a weird view of it because of, like I said, the county and that whole vibe. Yeah.

Nadege Souvenir:

Can I ask a last question?

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

And then let's sneak one in.

Melanie Hoffert:

Take it.

Nadege Souvenir:

And I'm going to totally change the direction, because I mean the work that you do is deep, and it's important, and it's impactful. But also, what are you doing that brings you joy? We love to paint a fuller picture.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Absolutely. Man, I get joy from my creativity. We talked a little bit about me at the beginning of being a dress maker, a master dress maker. I don't consider myself that. I love it and I do it. Other people have said that about me and that's lovely, but my gosh, I get the most joy sitting behind my sewing machine. And that's honestly what keeps me sane.

I can sit there for hours and make, and make, and the one thing that I love is creating for my community. And I'm really blessed to be able to do that. I make ribbon skirts, jingle dresses, I even bead hats. I do all kinds of things. And for me, the joy is in the making, but it's also me getting to see it out there and alive, so to say.

And which is even cooler, because a lot of things in the Ojibwe language live, our live bead work and stuff like that is actually, beads are alive too in our language. And I think about that when I see my work out and about. And I think it's so cool that it gets to live, right? And even just deeper than that. We always got to take it deeper.

But that's me. That's my reconciliation, that's my resistance, right? Is to continue to dress my people beautifully because I was given those gifts to do that. And that's a cultural, spiritual thing for me. That's where I get my joy.

Melanie Hoffert:

Wow, that was a great wrap. Thank you so much for-

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your time today.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, for being here with us.

Adrienne Benjamin:

Yeah, thank you. This was really fun and very ... We went all over the place.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, we did. Another great one. I mean, seriously.

Nadege Souvenir:

Just we pick the best guests.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, we do.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right?

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Yes, we do.

Nadege Souvenir:

And just, there were so many things that I wrote down that Adrienne said, but actually it was something ... It was not something that she said that really struck me. It was something that I've observed in her, and actually maybe other, and I might say female guests, but it could be all our guests. But the concept of tears and the concept of having deep conversations that get you to tears, and I know I do this. This sort of, tears are a sign of weakness in a conversation or tears are a sign that the conversation has gone astray.

But everything she said was so powerful and so personal, and so sort of rooted at the core. I wonder, how can we reframe tears, not as a sign of weakness, but as a manifestation of deep and important, and critical feeling and thinking and being?

Melanie Hoffert:

I'm really glad you're bringing this up, because as I was sitting in her presence, and I mean obviously people are listening to us, they can't see us. But she definitely had tears in her eyes, and she was very emotional. I felt so honored by her vulnerability, and honored by her the strength that it took for her to share her journey with us.

And so, yes. There wasn't any weakness in that. It was definitely a presence. And so I do think we should talk about how we can show up different in spaces that are, quote on quote, professional, for example.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right. Right. How we can be seen as the gift that it is, that somebody is able to be that, to go that open and vulnerable.

Melanie Hoffert:

To that place with us, yes. Related to that, or maybe not related, but something that I wrote down when she was talking, and has come up with some of our other guests as well, is the importance of therapy and really owning it, and talking about how it has brought her to this point on her journey. And I really appreciated that too because it is so critical. And I think we talked about it with Sarah when she was talking about social media and the way that she takes care of herself as part of that. There's a lot that our guests bring beyond the subject matter.

Nadege Souvenir:

Beyond the subject matter, and just sort of reinforcing ways that we can all show up in our lives and sort of be better versions of ourselves.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right. Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot for people who are listening to this to reflect on, both just from a practical standpoint, where do we need her position in our organizations? As well as, how do we show up as humans who are ... You know what? I'm just thinking of this now. She talked to about how she is herself. She's the unique person to do this job, and a lot of that is probably because of her willingness to be open in that way. Yeah, thank you for connecting those dots for me.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. No, absolutely. I'm going to be thinking about this one for a long time.

Melanie Hoffert:

Me too.

Nadege Souvenir:

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You! You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You Podcast, and on Twitter and Instagram @SoAppreciateYou.

Melanie Hoffert:

We'd also appreciate you taking a moment to write us a review. And if you like our show, be sure to follow I So Appreciate You! on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Nadege Souvenir:

Have a question or topic suggestion? Email us at podcast@spmcf.org. Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You!