Who gets to choose what’s fact or fake news, what’s important or sensationalized?

In a time when the information we consume is often curated or reinforced by what we like on social media or the news outlets we follow, Mukhtar Ibrahim is working to shift the narrative by giving immigrants and communities of color the kind of committed, responsive news coverage that we all deserve.

In this episode of I So Appreciate You!, co-hosts Nadege Souvenir and Melanie Hoffert explore the complexities of journalism and the importance of intentionally changing the dominant narrative with the publisher and CEO of the Sahan Journal.

“The way you shape and frame a story really matters. And who tells the story matters. That’s why I founded the Sahan Journal, so we won’t have to have that tension or questioning of how we put together a story, because as long as we’re following the basic journalistic skills and principles, everything will just move on.” - Mukhtar Ibrahim

Links

Sahan Journal website
Mukhtar Ibrahim website

Nadege:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You!, a raw, funny, and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders and humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends. When we get together, our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege:

So we're inviting you to join us and some incredible guests as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better.

Welcome listeners. Today we’re excited for this episode...

Melanie:

Very.

Nadege:

...to be joined by Mukhtar Ibrahim, who is the CEO of the Sahan Journal. So he'll be joining us in a little bit.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

And we'll get to talk about mean the impactful work that he's leading with that news outlet. But before then. News. We've actually been talking about this lately.

Melanie:

We have, yes. We just had dinner where this came up and we were all comparing notes and lamenting the fact that we don't get anything that is not like us. Can you explain what I just said to people? Because I just don't know what the bleep I just said.

Nadege:

So I think it actually started talking about Netflix feeds.

Melanie:

Yes, thank you. Thank you.

Nadege:

But it was the idea that we get content so curated to who we are, that if you shared your feed with me and I shared my feed with you, you'd be like, "What is this show? I've never seen these 10 shows before that I'm being suggested," and I might feel the same way for yours.

Melanie:

Exact, yes. Thank you for this. It came up, we had one of our nieces over our, friend's daughter, and my wife was putting on Netflix and thinking, oh, well she's going to get all these white lady lesbian movies. And we're like, we need to change it up. She is a little black girl who wants cartoons with people who look like her. So we're flipping through and that's where it came from, really thinking what are we watching and how do we get more diversity in the things that we're picking when we're being fed all the stuff that is just feeding sort of our interests. And that's, I'm kind of joking. It's not like we have this...

Nadege:

No, no, no.

Melanie:

You know what I'm saying. This feed.

Nadege:

But it's totally right though, because that's happening in our consumption of movies and TV shows that sign, but it's also happening in our consumption of news and information in the various places that we get that.

Melanie:

You're right. You're right. And we were talking just a little bit earlier and asked you if you ever read a newspaper and I'm...

Nadege:

An actual hardcore....

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

...delivered every morning newspaper? Occasionally, because we actually get the newspaper delivered.

Melanie:

This is amazing.

Nadege:

Every day.

Melanie:

We used to get the newspaper and I miss it. Do you like that tangible feeling? I know...

Nadege:

So I got to credit where credit is due, and that is Joshua my husband, he is the newspaper guy. I have tried and I find that I have more success looking at the headlines on my phone and clicking into stories. Legitimately, I am the most awkward human being with that in front of me.

Melanie:

You are. Yeah.

Nadege:

I'm like, how do you fold it? You see these people in the coffee shop who are so elegant, they open it, they back fold it.

Melanie:

Like origami. Yep.

Nadege:

And I'm just like, I wish I could be you, but I can't. So now I don't even want to try.

Melanie:

Right? Yes, it's true. How do you take care of yourself around news? Because it is, I think it's almost in ways important for us to know what's going on, but it can be poisonous to our souls. So I'm curious about if you have any sort of practices.

Nadege:

Yikes. No, probably not.

Melanie:

Okay, all right.

Nadege:

I mean, because I think about sometimes the hardest stories are the ones that get over amplified in non-news platforms. So probably I spend more time of all of the social media channels on Instagram and right, there are delightful videos that Viola Davis shares about kids doing cute things, amazing athletes and dancers, and all of that jazz. But then when a big moment of crisis hits, all of a sudden the feeds that normally were a place I went to for a respite and for a break are all full of everybody re-amplifying the same story. So interestingly enough, I'm most challenged by the hard news in the place where I actually don't go intentionally.

Melanie:

That yeah. I'm sure that's a lot of people have that experience. I mean now that you say that, you're right. If you want to take a mental break from something, it's almost impossible if you're on your phone, if you’re on anything.

Nadege:

Did I tell you this experiment I'm doing?

Melanie:

No.

Nadege:

So, I am trying to re-curate my Instagram algorithm.

Melanie:

Oh.

Nadege:

So the other day somebody posted something and I thought, "Oh, this is great." And so I clicked all the way through to the source and I was like, Oh, I should follow this source."

Melanie:

Sure.

Nadege:

This is really good information. I was following the source. I had literally never seen that piece of information or that particular post because of how Instagram was choosing to feed stuff to me. So every day for the last few days, I've been unfollowing or muting accounts that I'm like, I don't actually care about you.

Melanie:

Yeah.

Nadege:

And it is mind blowing to me. I cannot clearly articulate listeners, I'm sorry, you're about to hear me babble. Who does Instagram think I am because of the options that they have available, of the hundreds of accounts that I'm following, they keep feeding me the ones I care about the least. And so I'm trying to figure out what have I done as a consumer of this platform to make them think that something that I maybe liked two years ago and literally haven't seen a post of is something I want, versus the ones that I've intentionally sought out. So I don't know.

Melanie:

So this is an ongoing experiment. We can check back in on how your feed is.

Nadege:

It might be down to three accounts. It's alright.

Melanie:

I hope I'm on. Me and I say our podcast channel. No, but I think... Well, we're going to dig into it in a little bit, and it's going to be really interesting from the lens of a reporter, someone who's in journalism, to see how information is disseminated through a reputable journalistic entity like the Sahan Journal.

Nadege:

Right. With new voices and making absolutely sure that we're basically putting more into the algorithm.

Melanie:

I love that. Great closing.

Nadege:

We'll be right back with Mukhtar Ibrahim.

By now, you know that Melanie and I work for a community foundation. But what is a community foundation? How does it differ from other foundations or nonprofit organizations? Community foundations like the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation bring together the financial resources of families, individuals, and organizations who care about a specific place and then invest those resources back into the community. Want to know more about us and how we work? Visit spmcf.org/blog and search, "What is a community foundation?"

Melanie:

Well, today we are super excited to have a very special guest, Mukhtar Ibrahim. Thank you for being with us today.

Mukhtar:

Thank you for having me.

Melanie:

It's so fun. You're on the other end of the microphone today because you are a journalist, a reporter, and so we're excited to talk with you. But before we do, I just want to tell our listeners a tiny bit about you. You founded the Sahan Journal, which is a nonprofit newsroom dedicated to covering Minnesota immigrants and communities of color. Now, your list of accolades and awards is just way too long for us to get into, but I want to highlight a couple of things. We found it interesting, and in our last episode talked a lot about social media, and it looks like the Minnesota chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists named your Twitter account the best social media account in Minnesota, which is a big deal. That's amazing.

Mukhtar:

Yeah, it's been a while.

Melanie:

Yeah, it was 2018. And you were named by the Twin Cities Business Magazine as top 100 people to know. And this is like, I'm telling y'all, this is just scratching the surface of all of your accomplishments. A little bit about you personally, we learned from research and watching other interviews, you were born in Somalia and you spent your childhood in Ethiopia and Kenya and now have lived your adult life with your family in Minnesota. So I am super excited to dig in and welcome to the show.

Mukhtar:

Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and having me. I'm excited to be here.

Nadege:

Excellent. Well, before we get to the serious stuff, we like to start off every interview with three quick questions. So are you ready?

Mukhtar:

Yes.

Nadege:

Okay.

Mukhtar:

Let's do it.

Nadege:

Writing on paper or digitally?

Mukhtar:

Paper. If you look right here in front of me.

Nadege:

Yeah. So, old school.

Mukhtar:

Though I have been a journalist for many years in the digital space, I still like to create my own thing by writing down on paper.

Melanie:

Must be...

Mukhtar:

It just gives you a different feeling.

Melanie:

So you can read your own hand writing. I can't, so that helps.

Mukhtar:

Sometimes when I'm reporting and interviewing and you come back to the newsroom...

Melanie:

Yeah.

Mukhtar:

...sometimes you might just...

Melanie:

Okay. Now I feel better.

Nadege:

That actually makes me feel better.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

Because yeah, go through a day of meetings and I'm like, who wrote this? What is this? Okay, next one. Fruits or vegetables?

Mukhtar:

Vegetables.

Nadege:

Okay.

Melanie:

Okay.

Nadege:

And then finally texting or calling?

Mukhtar:

A mix of both.

Nadege:

Okay.

Mukhtar:

Yeah. I like to keep up with people and making calls feels special, but when you just want immediate things, or you want to ask questions, or you want to check in with someone and you don't want to talk for a while, texts can do the work.

Nadege:

Nice.

Melanie:

Yeah. Yeah. Calls are special. I like that you said that.

Nadege:

Right. They really...

Melanie:

I remember that when I push don't answer, don't answer when people are calling me, I'm not going to...

Nadege:

Right. Now I'm going to think of them as like, oh, yay, you're calling me instead of why are you calling me?

Melanie:

Yes, exactly.

Mukhtar:

And as we become more digital and we get connected, I think we don't want to lose touch off the thing that connects us. With talking to people, hearing their voice, and I think that's something that I like to keep up with.

Melanie:

That's great. Good. Well, we're going to jump into some questions about the work that you do. We want to start with a question around narrative change. At the foundation we talk about it, we invest in it, it's really important to us. And wanted to just know at the start of this conversation, what does narrative change mean to you and why is it important?

Mukhtar:

Yeah, that's a very good question to start, and I just want to acknowledge the foundation's support in this environment of trying to support places and organizations that try to change the narrative. And essentially that means trying to provide in the journalism space, I think about what happened after 9-11.

Melanie:

Yes.

Mukhtar:

And how the mainstream media covers Muslim Americans, for example. The narrative around Muslim Americans tends to be one-sided around terrorism, or recruitment, or [inaudible 00:11:51], or ISIS and national security, the narrative that's pretty much around Muslim communities in America. And that narrative tends to be there even after each administration. It just evolves. But the policies and everything that's even passed from the national space, the federal government is still part of that complete narrative around what the government, what the mainstream media, what the society thinks about Muslim Americans.

Imagine you are flying and your name is Mohammed or Ibrahim or whatever. You are not going to have the same experience as someone named Tim, or Michael, or...

Melanie:

Right.

Mukhtar:

And how can journalism play a role in really shifting that narrative and trying to bring the more holistic view of who these communities are, because they're very diverse.

Melanie:

Right.

Mukhtar:

The Muslim community is one of the diverse religion in the world, and how can we capture the real stories about people who are our neighbors, who are our coworkers, who are our leaders in the political space? And just not focus too much on national security, but also what unites us, what connects us, what we think of our neighbors and people who live with us because they have their own fears and needs and experiences and they're just like us.

Melanie:

Right.

Mukhtar:

So how can journalism play a role in really trying to display a different view of the Muslim American society in general than just the one dimensional aspect of national security, and terrorism, and whatever.

Melanie:

Yeah. You're really hitting on another thing we talk a lot about, which is this dominant narrative. Not a narrative rises about a community or about a group of people from someone, but that narrative often doesn't belong to the people, the one that we hear in mainstream media. So I really appreciate you sharing that with us.

Nadege:

So, as I think about narrative change in all the vehicles for narratives. We have media, TV, radio, podcast, all of those things. Why is journalism such a productive tool? I mean, I have my thoughts on that answer, but I'd love to hear it from you.

Mukhtar:

Yeah. I had a conversation with someone actually yesterday, and one thing she said stood with me. She said, journalists are bridge builders and the vehicle we use can be both good and bad. Journalism is very complicated field. You have broadcast journalism, you have print journalism, you have online journalism, and you have different mediums of journalism. And I think chronicling stories and events as they happen in a way that can capture that moment in a very clear way is powerful. And just imagine what happened when George Floyd was killed that day and how the media covered it. I was up that night, I was getting tweets and people are informing me about what happened, and what the police said completely was completely different than what I was hearing and seeing, right? So how can we capture that moment in a way that's very accurate so that it's going to go into archives and when people review that moment after a hundred years or 200 years, they will have a good picture of what that moment felt for the community and for the site and for the country as a whole.

So I think that's why journalism is just documenting things as they happen in a way that is accurate and reliable and we aren't just adding misleading information, but you're just trying to capture the moment as they happen. And I think it just even, I think historians and everyone, they review facts and what happened based on what reporters did or newspapers covered that particular moment, and for you to peel back and just go back in history, it's just journalism. And that's why I think it's really important in society to have journalism and reporters to just be out in the community and covering issues and documenting as things happen.

Melanie:

Right. You mentioned facts, which is such an interesting thing as we think about who gets to define the truth in journalism. And you've also brought up this notion of citizen journalists and reporters, because in a way we all are micro reporters as we see what's going on around us and then documenting it. So we wanted to just check in with this era of fake news, how you navigate that as an organization and as a journalist when you're really combating this notion of truth all of the time. Because even if you're telling the truth, someone's going to say you're not. And likewise, you're trying to dispel all of these false narratives that are being pumped into the world. So can you just touch a little bit on your challenge there?

Mukhtar:

So the idea of fake news is in practical terms when I write about you, you did something, or you are in the news in a way that you don't like and you just call that fake news.

Melanie:

Right.

Mukhtar:

But I think that's why we need to have a journalism place, a newspaper or an organization that holds the principles of journalism, which is fairness, accuracy, minimizing harm, and these people in the middle who really don't have a stake in what's going on, but tell us exactly how things are going or happening in that particular time. And that's why... Everyone is on social media or they have the preferred way of consuming news, or preferred website, or place to get the news, and it's hard to change someone's view if they are already locked. If you say, I like this website, they cover things that validate my views and perspectives. You're not going to read the New York Times or listen to NPR or watch CNN because you feel like they are not siding with you or telling you things that are opposite to what you have already consumed or believe in.

So I think this fragmentation of media is just problematic in society, and that's why I think we need more journalists, we need more newsrooms, we need more places that we can turn to that give us facts and information. And as you know, media, especially newspapers, have been closing down across the country. Saint Cloud city is now, they don't have a paper. Saint Cloud Times used to be one of the largest newspapers in Minnesota and now it's down to one reporter. So imagine 70,000, 80,000 residents in Saint Cloud not having a place to turn when things happen in the community. They will just go what they see on Twitter or Facebook or WhatsApp, though then that might not be really accurate, right?

Melanie:

Yeah.

Mukhtar:

So if you remove journalists from the picture, you just get all this world where you don't know what's true or what's not.

Melanie:

Right.

Nadege:

Wow, there's really a lot to unpack there, and I caught that you talked about the journalistic principles and the conveying of facts and information. And one of the things that I've been wondering about is in your work, really around intentional narrative change, right? Lifting up the voices that haven't been lifted. Do you ever feel a tension or does anyone create a false tension for you around journalistic objectivity and being intentional about who you're talking to and who you're covering?

Mukhtar:

Yeah. Yeah, that's another issue that I grappled with when I was working in mainstream newsrooms. The idea of objectivity is you don't have any feelings to what you're covering. And as personal, as human beings, we have feelings. I have different experiences and lived experiences than my white colleagues when it comes to issues around immigration, or terrorism, or things that affect me directly. If the mayor or the city council decides to ban alcohol, for example, I don't drink and I don't have any feelings to edit, but if someone is, for example, if someone is a reporter and they go to a bar after 5:00 PM when they file their stories on their deadline and they just want to cool off and they don't have that opportunity anymore, they will have different feelings. So objectivity means you just remove yourself from everything. And it's really hard to do that.

When I was reporting issues around immigration and religion, for example, people will tell me, don't get pigeonholed, try to cover something else. And those are the stories that were close to my heart, that I was very interested in, that I could do better than anyone else. So that when someone reads that story, they just get a different understanding and feeling about that particular issue. And it's really hard thing in journalism around the idea of objectivity because essentially that means we have to be completely objective, and it's not possible. I don't believe that principle.

Nadege:

Right.

Mukhtar:

I believe in fairness. Even if I don't like the ordinance that the city council passes, I will cover it in a way that is fair, I will talk to the council members, I will understand their perspectives and views about why they passed the ordinance, and I will talk to people who are probably upset and against it, and people who support that initiative or ordinance. And you get the full picture of what that means then you inserting yourself or removing yourself from this story, you just try it in a way that completely gives you a full picture of what that means.

Nadege:

Right.

Mukhtar:

There was a while back, I covered a story around the municipal ID in Minneapolis where undocumented immigrants can get a city ID so that they can open a bank account, or they can show it to the police when they get stopped, or go to the library to get a book or something, and there was unanimous decision around the need to have that ID in the city council. And the city council passed it in full, no objection. People who showed up in that those hearings were fully supportive of the measure, and when I filed this story, it just captured what happened. And when this story was edited and it was ready to be published, I got an email saying, we have to include a voice that is against this measure.

And I was like, why do we need a voice that is against it when those people even show up for the hearings or, so I ended up reaching out to anti-immigrants groups and included a voice in the story, which really have no stake in what was going on in Minneapolis. So the way you frame and shape the story really matters and who tells the story matters. And that's why I founded Sahan Journal so that we won't have those kind of tension or we won't question how we put together a story, because as long as we're following this basic journalistic skills, principles, everything will just move on.

Nadege:

I just... So many things that you said there, but I think what I really want to pull on is what you were suggesting is creating contrasting op or oppositional positions just for the sake of doing it is not objectivity, but it can seem like that. But the facts that you saw in that example you just provided us, nobody was objecting in real time. The story was it passed unobjected, and yet you were asked to find someone who felt different as if suggesting that those two things had existed in real time in the process of passing that.

Mukhtar:

Exactly, yeah. Yeah. Definitely, if there was someone else reporting this story, they will have probably called around to find out who's against this and all of that. But I felt this was something that all the council members agreed on, the place was full of people who were supportive for the measure. Why do we need a different voice in that story, for example? If you want to be objective, then you know just have two things that are not equal.

Nadege:

Yeah.

Mukhtar:

There's only one truth, one full story. And as long as you try to bring different voices, then that completely changes.

Melanie:

You talked about the complexity and this just illustrates it right there. And I also, I appreciate that you talk about how you can't fully remove objectivity from reporting because humans are doing the reporting. And I would imagine that that extends to what stories are being told, and you also mentioned who tells the story. So I'm curious about the changes that you maybe have observed in Minnesota as a result of the Sahan Journal just being an entity, telling these stories that might not otherwise be reported, and certainly bringing new voices to the conversation in really important ways. Have you had some observations about the ripple effect of that in either micro or macro ways?

Mukhtar:

Yeah. I came to Minnesota in 2005 and the number of people of color in the state was around, I think 8%. In 2010, that was around I think 13, 14%. Now it's 24% of the state’s population are people of color and who's telling their stories? The nonprofit journalism that they created in 2019 was to have a place that can give us a full picture of how these communities are changing, and redefining, and transforming our state. And when I was a reporter at NPR, the Star Tribune, I will write stories, simple stories about the Ethiopian community, or the Liberian community, or the Muslim community in general. And those stories will, after a couple of hours, they will just show up to be the most read stories on the website. And I just wondered how come we are not doing more of those stories since we see there's a need in readership, people want to read these stories, but we were not equipped or resourced to really provide more coverage around issues that are relevant to these communities.

And I think that really piqued my interest when I got fellowship from the Bush Foundation to advance my skills around journalism. And the idea was to come back and launch a newsroom that focuses on the issues that are relevant to communities of color. And when we launched, we are covering issues that are open. Anyone can really do these stories, people can go to shops, or mosques, or places that these communities convene and they can find deep stories that anyone else can read. And we were very small when we launched. It was just me in 2019 and then it grew from there and now we are a full newsroom of 18 people.

Melanie:

That's amazing. That's a lot of growth.

Mukhtar:

And we are covering tourism, and education, and economy, and business, and housing, and health, and basically everything that these reporters should be covering. And what we found out is there's just so many stories to tell. It's not just despair, or fear, or killings, or anything like that. There's really more stories that needs to be told in these communities. And we were like, how can we just cover, because there are communities that we're not even covering, right? Because we are very small. But what can we do if we have the full resources that can allow us to go to Worthington, or Saint Cloud, or Willmar, or Rochester, or Brooklyn Center, or Lakeville?

There are communities in all these places that are not being seen, the stories. And when we do stories, we see other media following up our stories after a week or so and picking it up from there. So in a way, we are setting the agenda of what is news and what's really a story when it comes to this community, so that the rest of the media can be challenged to do better and serve these communities better because they have a very powerful medium. And how can they use that medium in a way that is beneficial to the full communities.

Melanie:

Everybody.

Mukhtar:

Everybody in Minnesota.

Melanie:

Yeah, that's great.

Nadege:

I mean, we all know Minnesotans love hearing stories about Minnesotans.

Mukhtar:

That's true.

Nadege:

And so really what you're doing is helping us hear more stories about Minnesotans. You've talked about the complexity of the work, there is a lot of intersections, but what about the work brings you joy?

Mukhtar:

I think a few days ago we published a story of this undocumented immigrant who he's a father, a single father, he has kids, and he has work to do. He has to provide for his family. And there's a discussion around IDs for undocumented immigrants in the state legislature right now. It's the first time in a while that both the House, the Senate and the House is controlled by Democrats and there's a huge need to accelerate the passing of this measure where everybody can get an ID so that they can live in a normal life. And this is something that have been happening for a while, since 2018 or even before that. And now there's a real opportunity to bring some peace to people who are in Minnesota.

And this is a lot of discussion around that issue. The lawmakers are talking about it, the activists are talking about it, everyone is talking about it. And one of our reporters was like, what about if we just follow around one person who don't have a driver's license? So we found this man and we follow him around for a day or two and found out the challenge that he's facing, right?

Nadege:

Yeah.

Mukhtar:

This is a man who cannot take his kids to vacation, who cannot take his kids to Mall of America or to the parks because he has a daily routine where he has to drive from his home to work, pick up his kids from school if they need, and come back home. He cannot even go outside after dark. And for us to have a place that really centers that story and say, we are hearing all this discussions, but how can we humanize this issue? It's really a complex policy. How can we humanize and find a good way to paint a good picture on this issue? And I encourage listeners to really look at that story and read it.

Melanie:

Oh, I'm going to.

Nadege:

Yeah.

Mukhtar:

And that's the thing that really... And sweet guy in terms of just when you read that story, and when you follow around, and when you have a good picture, and when you don't see that kind of story in other places, it just makes me very happy.

Melanie:

Right. That's great. You are definitely humanizing stories like you said, and we really appreciate you being here. I just want to call out to our listeners that it is a... You are running a nonprofit news organization, so if they want to support you, they can certainly go to the website. But we really appreciate your time with us and all of the work that you're doing.

Mukhtar:

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been a very interesting discussion.

Nadege:

Yeah. Thank you.

Melanie:

Well, Nadege, like with all of the conversations we have, we could spend so much time parsing, going in different directions. I'm curious what stood out to you in this conversation.

Nadege:

Now what really stood out to me was Mukhtar's focus on the humanness of the reporter and the fact that when I asked about objectivity, he was like, yeah, no. That's not a thing because as a human you have a relationship to the story. Sometimes the story doesn't impact you directly, but sometimes it impacts your lived experience, and to ignore that is actually not telling the full story.

Melanie:

100%. And he also brought in the principles of journalism. And I think that's the counterbalance where humans are always going to be telling the stories, but if there are some common principles that really help us trust that storyteller, I think that's helpful. When we think about the humanness that's involved in reporting it, I also think it's important for us as consumers of news media to think about how we are bringing our objectivity or our discernment to any news article, because I'm sure we have favorites where we're listening to particular venues or reading particular news streams. And well, let me ask you this. Do you think people can, I know what he said, but do you think these outlets that claim to be fully objective can ever, ever be that?

Nadege:

I mean, I have to say no to that because you just think about how we are fed news media, just social media and the algorithms.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

If you've made any indication of where you lean, you get fed some and not others.

Melanie:

Right.

Nadege:

So clearly there is something in the core of how people are delivering journalistic content that allows a distinguishing perspective.

Melanie:

You're right. I have my Apple newsfeed or whatever. I've picked outlets that I would never tune into just because I want to have that counterbalance. Of course, it just makes me angry, which is telling in and of itself. Like, what? But I do think it's important for us all to keep our eyes on what's out there. And like I mentioned earlier, I was listening to a story from a publication that I follow that I think aligns with my values and I'm like, huh, I don't think they're actually reporting completely fair and balanced. And again, it's bringing our discernment to these stories that we consume.

Nadege:

And also where you consume them.

Melanie:

Right?

Nadege:

Because I feel like each of the platforms has a gray area or an allowance for how you... I mean, here we are on a podcast.

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

We aren't an objective news source, but lots of news outlets have podcasts

Melanie:

Have podcasts.

Nadege:

And the podcast where they deep dive on a particular issue and they're may be using the bent of whoever the star...

Melanie:

Yes.

Nadege:

Who the podcast vehicle is. Now, is that the same as if that person wrote a piece in their daily paper?

Melanie:

Right. Which is fact checked and which they're trying to make it an objective piece of content.

Nadege:

Right. And with podcast, you're trying to tell a captivating story. You need somebody to tune into that episode and stay at minute one all the way to minute what, 40, 45, however long it is your show. And so I feel like the agendas of the different vehicles influence how information is delivered.

Melanie:

You're right. Well, there's a lot for us all to think about today as everyone's listening to our podcast, which is a fair and balanced in a Nadege and Melanie way.

Nadege:

Yes, indeed.

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You! You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You Podcast and on Twitter and Instagram @soappreciateyou.

Melanie:

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Nadege:

Have a question or topic suggestion? Email us at podcast@spmcf.org. Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You.