Episode 1 opens up with an introduction of new co-host, Chief Marketing Officer Melanie Hoffert, before she and co-host Nadege Souvenir dive into the episode’s topic. This week they discuss the importance of a heart-based approach to giving, with special guest Margaret Wurtele.

Margaret Wurtele has been giving and raising money for the arts for years. Her parents were also supporters of the arts. Margaret has worked for Walker Art Center, the Saint Paul United Arts Fund and Dayton Hudson Foundation (now the Target Corporation). She was a co-founder of Hungry Mind Press (now Ruminator Press). As a volunteer, she has served on many boards.

Margaret is also a vineyard owner and author. She has written two memoirs: Touching the Edge: A Mother’s Path from Loss to Life and Taking Root: A Spiritual Memoir, as well as a novel, The Golden Hour.

When Margaret thinks about creativity, she draws reference from The Artist’s Way, because it’s often the act of doing or practicing that leads you to the creative process.

“The creative act is almost a sacred thing for me…It’s mysterious. It takes attention to do. I’ve always kept journals all my life, starting in high school, and so the actual act of writing about important moments in my life has always been part of that life,” Margaret said.

“Art can be an agent of social change, for building community, for, you know, just bringing people together,” said Nadege. “Everybody’s got an art story, whether or not they realize it.”

Nadege Souvenir:

Welcome everyone to I So Appreciate You!, a raw, funny and uniquely insightful podcast about the issues and opportunities we all face as values-based leaders and humans. I'm Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

And I'm Melanie. We're colleagues at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation, and we're friends. When we get together, our conversations can go anywhere, especially when bringing a friend or two along for the ride.

Nadege Souvenir:

So we're inviting you to join us and some incredible guest as we explore the challenges and triumphs of people shaking up our community for the better. Welcome, today we're talking about being a philanthropist, a creator and finding your passions with writer and supporter of the arts Margaret Wurtele. Before we keep going, Mel, it's your first episode.

Melanie Hoffert:

It is. I'm super excited, and I'm really excited to have this episode with Margaret. She seems like a wonderful human.

Nadege Souvenir:

Okay. So how do you feel, are you like, the butterflies are out?

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, the butterflies are here. I should be in that corner drinking coffee and writing down amazing pull quotes that you're saying, but here I am in front of a microphone doing my best, but I think it's going to be great.

Nadege Souvenir:

So I'm going to dive in because I did the thing that I always do, and I found some random quotes somewhere. I've got to be a nerd sometimes, and since we're talking about philanthropy, I was doing a little Googling about women and philanthropy. And so here's what I found, and I'm going to read it, so it's going to sound all here we are, "Nearly nine in 10 women wish they could be doing more to create positive social change and their most commonly cited motivations for giving because the need is so great, and because they want to make a difference, reflect empathetic heart-based approach to philanthropy." React to that, what does that mean to you?

Melanie Hoffert:

It means so much to me. I'm just thinking, in this time and place as a woman wanting to do so much, that heart-based approach to philanthropy is I guess natural, but it's also hard to protect yourself because we can take on so much, but we can't cure all ills in a minute. So that's what came to mind right away? How about you?

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, what I took from that, the heart-based approach is really like, let your heart lead your philanthropy because I think what you're saying is totally right. There's so much we could be doing, and so many things I get called to go to or to support, and I really wish I was crazy wealthy, although I might not be here if I was crazy wealthy, but I really wish I could just give everywhere and all the time, but my resources are finite and limited. And so thinking that I should lead with the heart really helps give me comfort about where I spend my time and my giving.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad you pulled on that because I do think you're looking at the asset based read of that. And I'm thinking about how women often over contribute or over commit I should say, so in this overcommitment that we do as women, it's really important to remember that you also have to listen to what you're being pulled to though.

Nadege Souvenir:

I mean that over commitment is real. I think I'm on five boards right now, but-

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah, I look at your calendar sometimes and I am exhausted just opening it up.

Nadege Souvenir:

... but what are the things that, just out of curiosity, what are you passionate about? Where do you give and support?

Melanie Hoffert:

As you know my wife started a nonprofit and this was really perfectly timed in my life because watching a nonprofit from the ground up. She started it when we first met, and then we were doing fundraising and connecting with foundations, and then to be now in a foundation these many years later, but taking a half step back, she started a organization called All Square which invests in those who have been impacted by our justice system. And so the last six years of my life in particular have been really dialed into the impact of mass incarceration and what we're seeing as a result of that, and the overt racism that's just baked into our system. So I would say I give time, energy direction, advice often not really welcomed in our household to that issue, but the other things that are really important to me are animal welfare issues. I'm really tuned into those little beans that are around us as you know I raised a bird a couple of summer ago, it's really weird.

Nadege Souvenir:

But if you have not followed this journey, you need to find it. We need to link to the story about Fred.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, yes. Fred, the bird I raised during the pandemic, he fell into my lap and I couldn't let him die, so that was a thing, but that is super important to me. And then I'm also a writer, so I really like organizations that cultivate writing and creativity in people. And I cannot fail to mention that I just joined the board of an amazing organization called Raise The Barr. Raise The Barr was founded by Anthony Barr who was a Minnesota Vikings football player. He was just transferred to Dallas and his mother, Lori and Raise The Barr invests in single parent families, and so that's really incredible work that I am excited to be a part of. And how about you, Nadege, all these boards? Goodness.

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, we share that creativity line. I definitely am involved in the performing arts, I have always been. Once upon a time, I pretended I was a dancer, but I realized that was not my life's journey. And so I thought I was going to be in arts administration. I got my Master's, I did all of that, but also not my life's journey, but I'm still called to support the performing arts. And so I serve on boards and I give the Board Chair of Minnesota Opera that sort of stuff, and I love it because I think art is so fundamentally important. Sometimes when there's that kind of, I don't know, ranking of need, art can fall off like it's a frivolous or a side thing, but I actually don't think that it's frivolous. Art can be a passion or an agent for social change, for building community, for just bringing people together, and everybody's got an art story whether or not they realize it. Everybody has art moments whether or not they realize it, so you will never not find me in an art space.

Melanie Hoffert:

No, it's really important. I think we are doomed if art falls to the wayside because it's part of the human spirit. We need to experience art. I went to my first opera this year.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yes, you did.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. And actually through All Square. Someone gifted All Square some tickets, and so I was actually blown away. I did not realize how much I would like the opera. It was Carmen and it was really enjoyable, so I it's really been fun to follow your journey with the Minnesota Opera in particular.

Nadege Souvenir:

I really love that you said that because I do not think that enough people appreciate that opera is all of it. It's theater, it's music, it's dance. It is like a full fledged performing art multi-sensory production situation, and so if you like any of those components should give it a try, so that's my general plug for opera as a good board chair as a good civic, whatever. We've got a great season coming up.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Well, I'm excited to hear from someone who has a lot of experience in this space and when we come back, we're going to be joined by Margaret Wurtele. If that name seems familiar to you, it might be because you recognize it from the Wurtele Thrust at the Guthrie. We're talking about arts.

Nadege Souvenir:

And some other place, she's so great.

Melanie Hoffert:

She is. And the Wurtele Upper Gardens at the Walker Arts Center, so Margaret has been really instrumental in our community around arts and the advancement of arts. I'm excited to talk to her.

Nadege Souvenir:

Are you looking to make a larger impact on causes you care about? Not everyone realizes that cash isn't the only way to give. There are many advantages to donating other assets such as real estate, stock or farm equipment. Do you want to learn more? Call 651-224-5463 or email the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation gift planning team at philanthropy@spmcf.org.

Melanie Hoffert:

All right. We're back, and we're excited to welcome our very special guest today, Margaret Wurtele. So Margaret, before we get started with the hard questions, we have just a fun little icebreaker that we like to share with our guests. It's just three quick questions, just answer whatever comes to mind.

Margaret Wurtele:

Okay.

Melanie Hoffert:

Rain or snow?

Margaret Wurtele:

Rain.

Melanie Hoffert:

Chardonnay or Cabernet?

Margaret Wurtele:

Cabernet.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, very definitive.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. You didn't hesitate on that one.

Margaret Wurtele:

No.

Melanie Hoffert:

No. Dogs or cats?

Margaret Wurtele:

Dogs.

Melanie Hoffert:

Okay. That too is very sure, wonderful.

Nadege Souvenir:

And I don't know if this is going to work, we're cat people.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yeah.

Margaret Wurtele:

I love cats actually. It's just that I have a dog.

Nadege Souvenir:

The nicest dog ever.

Margaret Wurtele:

My dog is my partner right now.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yes. Margaret, thanks so much for that, and for listeners who don't know you, I just want to share a few facts about you, just to set a little context. So you are a philanthropist and a community leader who has served on the boards of a number of organizations like Minnesota Opera which is where we met, the Guthrie Theater and The Loft Literary Center. You are also an artist, an author, and I'm sure we will talk about that. And you have founded a vineyard, Terra Valentine, yes?

Margaret Wurtele:

Yes. Cabernet.

Nadege Souvenir:

You see, there you go. So how are you doing today?

Margaret Wurtele:

I'm doing great. Thanks, Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

Well, Margaret, we wanted to dig in talking a little bit about your philanthropy. We are obviously staff members of a community foundation and we spend a lot of time thinking about how to have impact in the community both as an organization and with our donors, so our first question for you is just how did you find your way into giving?

Margaret Wurtele:

Well, it's interesting because I've been involved in giving for the arts really my whole life it seems. I started out, I don't know if you guys remember, you live in Saint Paul, but there used to be a United Arts Fund in Saint Paul. And I'm not sure it was a great idea, but it existed for several years and I was the development director for it, so I raised money for the arts for a long time. And then I went over to Dayton-Hudson Corporation now Target, and I worked there in the foundation and I specifically focused on the arts, so I had a great education in giving and getting. And by the way, I think it's super important for people who give money away to have raised it because it really helps you understand the people that are looking for support for whatever it is, so then it just so happened that my husband was very successful and we got to a point in life where we were able to make gifts, and so now that's a big part of what I do.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. Can I pull on that thread a little bit about people who give money should raise it? What are examples? I mean, not everyone's going to have a chance to be in a development shop and actually raise money for a living, but what are some other ways that people could learn how to raise money?

Margaret Wurtele:

Well, they could volunteer, and I think it's important when you raise money to be super excited about whatever it is that you're raising money for, so just to follow their hearts and follow their passions and find an organization that works in that area and they all need money, so that won't be hard, but to offer to help them find it.

Melanie Hoffert:

You talked about being super excited about where you're giving, and in listening to your journey, you've talked about starting early with the arts and it's been a through line in your contribution to our community and you of course, have a big, big impact today. So I'm curious for folks who might be earlier in their journey, what advice you might have about finding that passion or finding that focus because there's so many places that need support especially now in this time and place, so any advice?

Margaret Wurtele:

Absolutely. And honestly, I don't rank any particular area higher than another. It's only what I think I can be most effective in doing because I have so much experience in the arts, and I know the people who run the organizations.

Nadege Souvenir:

I really love that you said that, you don't rank any area because I think that's what happens. People start thinking, "Oh, where do I give? And there's so many options and what's the best thing in the most important thing," but what you're really saying is, it's got to be in you, part of you, your soul, your love, your passion.

Margaret Wurtele:

Exactly. And I think I know because I do get asked to participate in a lot of other areas, and I do sometimes because there are other areas I care about a lot, but I think part of it too, is knowing the field in a way and feeling comfortable in it and knowing the people so you can know who to trust and all of that. So it's only a matter of, I think, effectiveness is maybe the way I would put it the best.

Melanie Hoffert:

Right. And just watching some interviews of you, it sounds like you really have become not just involved in organizations, but in the lives of the leaders, and so you've had an opportunity to really see the impact that they're making, the strengths that they have. And so could you just talk a little bit about that part, how it's enriched your life to be so close to the folks who are leading in our community?

Margaret Wurtele:

Yeah. I mean, it just keeps happening that, and maybe I'm on a board or have been of course, when I was working at Dayton-Hudson, I got to know everybody who was running all the arts organizations. So I knew their history, and because we share an interest, I'm a big fan of whatever they do, we became friends. We become friends and I have a lot of them, both artists and administrators.

Melanie Hoffert:

That really just speaks to the alignment for you, your passion, your giving area and the people who you encounter along the way which I think is really wonderful.

Nadege Souvenir:

So I just want to ask a fun question. Because you're so steeped in the arts and that's where your giving is, there've got to be some special moments that have happened over the years or just fun... When you get to combine a thing that you're passionate about with helping community, probably a lot of it is special, but there's got to be a moment or two that you hold near or dear to your heart.

Margaret Wurtele:

There are just certain moments that stand out for you. My first date with my second husband was at the Minnesota Orchestra, and it was Brahms's first violin concerto, and that music always shines out for me whenever I hear it.

Melanie Hoffert:

A quote that we pulled and I really loved from you is about the creative act, so I'm just going to read it then I have a follow up question, "I think that the creative act whether it's writing a poem or writing a book or performing in a play is really the highest expression of the human spirit, and that's what I want to nurture in our giving," which really speaks to everything we've been talking about. So as I mentioned to you before we started the show, I'm just finishing your book, Touching the Edge: A Mother's Spiritual Path From Loss to Life, which is beautiful. And you've written three books among, like we talked about the vineyard and everything else you do in this community and in your life, so my question for you is, for people who want to contribute to their community and have passions and have businesses and are working, how have you over the years really been able to nurture yourself and your passions with your philanthropy, with your family and how have you kept that balance?

Margaret Wurtele:

Yeah. That's a really interesting question because I think the creative act is almost a sacred thing to me. I think, where does it come from? It's mysterious and it takes attention to do. I guess, I've always kept journals all my life, starting when I was in high school, and so the actual act of writing about important moments in my life has always been part of that life. And so while she mentioned my book, Touching the Edge, it was about my son's death, and when he was killed in a mountain climbing accident, I started of course, keeping a lot of journals because that's the way I've learned to cope with things in my life. So that became later the raw material for the book, but I will say that the creative process takes real attention and nurturing. I mean, I'm now writing right now and for me to write because I'm naturally a very, I don't want to say social, but engaged person, anything will distract me, any activity that comes along.

Melanie Hoffert:

We all know how that goes.

Margaret Wurtele:

So when I have a project like that before me, I have to wrestle myself down, and I used to set aside Mondays as the only time, the only thing I would do would be write. And then I'd get distracted all morning and around 2 o'clock I could finally sit down and do it, but you really have to, I don't know, it's so mysterious, kind of set the stage and then let the creative process rip, and it is so not easy. I have tremendous respect for composers, playwrights, writers, artists, anybody who's trying to call up what they want to say out of nothing or out of their life experience or whatever.

Melanie Hoffert:

What I hear then is, it's equal parts. Discipline in some way and then also equal parts, just honoring that mystery around us that is art.

Margaret Wurtele:

Exactly.

Melanie Hoffert:

Thank you for that.

Nadege Souvenir:

I feel like you just gave us all, really good life advice. The whole thing is, great, set the stage and then set the conditions to happen. And honestly, I feel like I could do that in my work, in my household chores that I never want to do, all of those things. Do you think that, you spoke of the mysteriousness of the creative process and the fact that you're an artist, do you think that's what draws you to being in the art space for your giving, for your philanthropy, for your leadership? Do you think that there's an innate connection there or maybe you'd be here anyway even if you weren't yourself an artist?

Margaret Wurtele:

Good question. I mean, I don't think it's necessary because I know a lot of people who are huge arts fans and attenders and consumers who are not themselves artists, and I could very happily keep going in that vein and not be writing myself which is actually the case right now, so I think it helps. I'm learning the piano, which is something I took up pretty recently.

Melanie Hoffert:

Wow.

Margaret Wurtele:

From scratch-

Nadege Souvenir:

Really?

Margaret Wurtele:

... two years ago.

Nadege Souvenir:

I'm really glad you brought that up because I was almost going to ask about it.

Margaret Wurtele:

Oh, yeah. And it's been interesting. It takes so much work, but I love doing it, and it's made me appreciate hugely of course, any pianist and anybody who's working in the music field. There is so much there, it's so complicated and-

Melanie Hoffert:

That's impressive.

Margaret Wurtele:

... anyway, I don't know that counts as being an artist. I wish that I had more expression in my piano playing. Right now, I'm trying to learn how to get the notes out, but I hope to get there someday. There's a lot of rudimentary work that goes into it first.

Melanie Hoffert:

I'm just curious because I'm also a writer and I identified with a lot of what you said about that process of struggle, and having to sometimes just sit down and do it. Is piano, are you finding a similar, I guess, discipline is needed for it and also a similar joy that comes from that creation, so what are the parallels or are they totally different?

Margaret Wurtele:

Okay. What occurs to me right now is the book called The Artist's Way-

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes.

Margaret Wurtele:

... which is a terrific book, and basically what it says is, and I know that I could do this if I wanted to get right back into writing, is that every day you get up and you just do. You write three pages or I forget how many they say, it doesn't matter what it is and then you rip it up because somehow it's the act of actually doing that, A, makes you better and B, leads you into the creative process. So I think if I practiced five minutes a day in the piano, it wouldn't be the same. I really actually love practicing.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, that's wonderful.

Margaret Wurtele:

Yesterday, it was almost two hours and it's a good thing.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. I think that there are parents around the world who wish their kids felt that way when they put them in piano lessons, and I wish I could go back in time and tell my young self, "No, stay at the piano. You will really appreciate it one day when you can play show tunes at a party or something."

Margaret Wurtele:

Exactly. But there's something about kids that they're naturally rebellious. I think of religion in the same category. I was brought up not allowed to do that, and it made me want it very much, so as an adult I got into it. But it's the way people rebel against their religious upbringing and quit the piano, same thing.

Nadege Souvenir:

There's so many parallels between art and life, aren't there really?

Margaret Wurtele:

Yeah, there really are.

Nadege Souvenir:

So I want to circle us back to philanthropy a little bit because when you align your values and it's clear to you that art is your space, that means that there are spaces that aren't your space. That probably means you have to say no sometimes, and I know that as people start stepping into the world of giving and you go to one event and now you get a request from someone else that saying no feels like a really hard thing to do. Do you have any advice or tips about how a person approaches the no?

Margaret Wurtele:

I do because when I worked for Dayton Hudson Corporation Foundation, we had to say no a lot because of course, it was a public process and there were so many organizations, and Dayton Hudson was very focused as well in both the arts and social action. But I think the biggest lesson for me was from when I was raising money because the most important thing is to say no right away if you're not going to do it. There's nothing more frustrating for someone who's raising money than someone saying, "Oh. Well, maybe and let me think about it for six months," and then you keep wasting your energy on that person even though it's not going to happen. And it's always really hard to say no, but I think it's so important to do it as soon as possible, and to know that's really a gift to them of a different kind.

Nadege Souvenir:

So really a kindness to say no quickly.

Margaret Wurtele:

Yes, absolutely.

Nadege Souvenir:

Also, good life advice. Just generally, there are so many nuggets here, so just take this all and apply it in all context.

Melanie Hoffert:

We started the conversation at the beginning of your giving journey, and I'm just curious and would love to back up even further when you were growing up, if philanthropy was part of your family and if those seeds were planted with you at that time in your life?

Margaret Wurtele:

It wasn't, and in a really similar way in a way, my parents were both interested in the arts. My dad was one of the few little group of business people that worked with Tyrone Guthrie in getting the Guthrie Theater started.

Melanie Hoffert:

Oh, wonderful.

Margaret Wurtele:

And he was involved at the Walker as well, and my mom was a big reader, still is. She's 98, and she wrote book reviews for the Star Tribune, and I wish that she had done more creative writing because I think she would've been fabulous, but for whatever reason, she didn't take that route. So I grew up around it and realized the importance for the community, and I've just been very lucky to be in a position to be able to support it.

Melanie Hoffert:

And just to continue with that just a little bit further, so for folks who might be just getting into philanthropy or have a young family and kids, do you have any thoughts or advice for a child? What might have the most impact whether it's allowing them to make a decision about where to give or just observing their parents in the world being engaged in the things that they care about, thoughts about that?

Margaret Wurtele:

There's nothing like an example probably better than trying to force kids into something, back to the church-

Melanie Hoffert:

The piano.

Margaret Wurtele:

... and the piano. I guess, that's pretty much what I [inaudible 00:26:59].

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, I mean, I certainly feel like your leadership in the community is a wonderful example for anyone to follow, and I just keep thinking we could be here for all day. Maybe get that bottle of Cabernet and then actually talk through the night.

Melanie Hoffert:

That's what I was going to suggest, yes.

Nadege Souvenir:

We did this wrong. We should have started in a very different way, but I would just love to give you the opportunity to close our conversation as we wind down and reflect back. Is there anything that you'd like to leave folks if they're wondering, "Okay, I found my passion. I think I know where to go." Any advice for how they just take that next step and being involved?

Margaret Wurtele:

I think any organization probably has people who are accessible and they all need help of various kinds, and maybe you could find somebody who already is involved in that organization and ask them what they might suggest.

Nadege Souvenir:

Oh, I love it. I think that's wonderful and that's the way to do it. What you're saying is, it's really about people.

Margaret Wurtele:

Exactly.

Melanie Hoffert:

Margaret, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today and being so kind on my first episode. Really, you're the perfect guest for me, so it's really wonderful to speak with you.

Margaret Wurtele:

Well, you're going to be the perfect partner for Nadege.

Melanie Hoffert:

I hope so, that's my aim.

Nadege Souvenir:

No, again, thank you so much for joining us today.

Margaret Wurtele:

Thank you for having me.

Nadege Souvenir:

That was such a good conversation.

Melanie Hoffert:

She was such a delight and so full of wonderful ideas.

Nadege Souvenir:

Can you see why she's one of my favorite people?

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes. Then she just became one of mine.

Nadege Souvenir:

Right, and so here's the thing we were talking about philanthropy and art and I don't care, she gave us so many nuggets that literally we could do a top 10 list of life advice, and this is what you should do to live a good life.

Melanie Hoffert:

Agreed. One that I wrote down when I was listening to her, she said, "Say no, immediately and early." I mean, in giving in philanthropy that's important, but it is also in life, in general. I mean, think of the commitments that we all make because we feel obligated, no.

Nadege Souvenir:

Well, she called it a gift, and you know what? She's right. I think about the number of times people ask me for stuff. You're right, your gut knows it's a no.

Melanie Hoffert:

Your gut knows, you have to honor that. And she also in talking about philanthropy, she really said, there's no right way to do it, but the thing, and this goes back to honoring your gut. It is values aligned. It works if it's something that is important to you and you are called towards, and so that was also something that I really took to heart.

Nadege Souvenir:

Yeah. No, I think that when she talked about not prioritizing areas of philanthropy and giving and just to your point, aligning with your values, it really makes it a lot easier to decide where you should spend your time, your money, and where you should spend your time ̶ period.

Melanie Hoffert:

Absolutely. No, she was a wonderful guest, and I hope we follow up with that wine date to talk more about this.

Nadege Souvenir:

I know it was such a treat to kick off the season with Margaret.

Melanie Hoffert:

Yes, agreed.

Nadege Souvenir:

Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You! You can find us on Facebook at I So Appreciate You! Podcast, and on Twitter and Instagram at @soappreciateyou.

Melanie Hoffert:

We'd also appreciate you taking a moment to write us a review, and if you like our show, be sure to follow I So Appreciate You! on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening to us right now.

Nadege Souvenir:

Have a question or topic suggestion? Email us at podcast@spmcf.org. Thank you for listening to I So Appreciate You!